Pnina Gutman

[0:00] wir haben den neunten August 2010 sind zu Gast im Haus von Pnina und Moshe Gutman in Meishar in Israel wir führen ähm ein Interview für das Projekt »Sprechen trotz allem« für die Stiftung Denkmal für die ermordeten Juden Europas ähm mit Pnina Gutman

[0:17] ähm mein Name ist Daniel Baranowski Barbara Kurowska ist die zweite Interviewerin Uwe Seemann ist für die Kamera zuständig [cut]

[0:25] so Ms Gutman when did you come to Israel

[0:30] you have to [gestures] I came to Israel in 1950 with my parents Miriam and Mendel Himmel   and settled in Meishar immediately and uh  

[0:44] that is where we are still today

[0:47] yes

[0:49] and where you are living still today

[0:51] since then till now   and uh

[0:53] you mentioned beforehand that uhm when you were 16 that was in approximately 1958 uhm you kind of asked your parents about your roots uhm could you tell us a little bit about that

[1:10] uhm   until the age of eight I came to Israel I have some memories I didn’t uh I did I do remember only two years being with the Himmels and I had some memories about uhm   a a wonderful beautiful church and another family and especially a young man named

[1:40] Bogdan uh but trying to ask my parents uh who it is what it is they   they’d answer and uh   I I   left those I put it away and put it in the drawers of uh my heart and didn’t tell sp- speak about it and as you say at the age of 16 I told my father »you

[2:11] are not my father« and then he told me that I was adopted but he has nothing to tell me about my past I was just found by a some person close to the railroad and nothing more to   to tell about it   uhm   I didn’t find uh necessary to look after my real family

[2:37] the biological family because I was very beloved   very loved by the Himmels I loved them too and I didn’t have the drive at the age of 16 to   look around the world or something I didn’t feel I miss something let’s say so   and uh   uh  

[3:06] only at 1996 by

[3:10] chance reading an article about uh some orphan and orphans an orphanage there was mentioned the name of Otwock which uh light a red light for me and I thought it might be interesting to to see the I’ve I’ve read there are lists from the adopted child uh

[3:36] children so I thought maybe there I’ll find the name of Himmels of the Himmels and then I can know where I was before before adopted by them uhm   it was very short and quick looking at the lists I found that number seven that Miriam and Mendel Himmel has

[4:02] adopted a a girl named Basia Barbara Kaczmarek Rebhuhn and under the column where was the child during the war there was written the name appeared the name Kaczmarek Stanisława and Franciszek and Stanisława living in Sierakow Daszyńskiego three and that

[4:31] become become a trigger to begin the search uh   I I thought there is something I can look for and there is an a a point I can begin in so I wrote to the ŻIH the Jewish Historical Institute in Warsaw and asked if they know something about Barbara Rebhuhn Kaczmarek

[4:56] uh I got an answer that uh they have something in their notes about uh a letter talking uh telling uh writing about Barbara Rebhuhn Kaczmarek but that’s only the the thing they have the notes uh   I wrote the letter to the Kaczmareks telling I’m looking

[5:22] for them according the address I had uh but the letter came back after a month didn’t reach them at all uh

[5:33] that was an address in Poland

[5:35] yes in Sierakow close to Poznań and uh we didn’t lose time and about uh two weeks later we went to Poland   Warsaw was our first station   went to the ŻIH and uh one named Yale Reisner he was the chief of the archive I don’t remember he began to look after

[6:03] under the name Rebhuhn or Kaczmarek and then suddenly he found the   the letter a letter uh talking about Barbara Rebhuhn Kaczmarek the letter was written by a uhm   Franciszek Kaczmarek from Sierakow and he   it says that he had a he has found a girl close to

[6:34] the railroad in Milanówek and she lived with him until now it was March 48 and uh as she is Jewish he doesn’t know what to do maybe the committee the Central Jewish Committee can help him   and uhm   uh instead an answer there came a   a one of the Jewish

[7:03] Committee workers and said there is no way I can I can stay with them no way I have to go to a back to my to my people become Jewish and they have to take me away

[7:18] did they wanted to adopt you the Kaczmareks

[7:22] yes oh you   remind me uh the time came I have to go to school they wanted to adopt me officially so they were very religious were they went to the priest and told him the story and the priest said »no way you have to to be sure nobody f- for of her family

[7:46] left survived because she is Jewish don’t do it first address to the Jewish Committee« and that’s what he have done has done but this brin- brought this uh person who decided there is no chance to leave me (at) with the Christs with the Kaczmarek family

[8:11] and I have to go to the Jewish people I have to return to the Judaism and uh   it was   uh   it wasn’t easy of course for the Kaczmareks I can’t remember it I don’t remember being taken away and uh I was taken by the Jewish Committee and put into

[8:39] the orphanage in Otwock

[8:42] and that was when ? [louder:] that was when ? in what year

[8:47] when it was uh April 48 it was just after the correspondence between the Kaczmarek and the Committee   and uh   what I remembered from this place was uh   the day uh I was I was called to the to the office and they told me »Barbara« [accentuates:] »Barbara«

[9:16] in Polish uh »here you are your parents they came to take you home   they are your parents they survived the«   uhm   this sentence was deep in my heart and my mind because I thought what is it how is it I have to be introduced to my parents ? I was about

[9:40] six years I can remember my parents but that was this I tried to ask the Himmels about this Otwock they told I was sick and this was a sort of a hospital or s- recovering house and I stayed there   uhm   this was before I began the search of course  

[10:04] only when

[10:07] I remembered Otwock because all the search began af- eight years after the deaths of the Himmels so it was easier for me to do it also this was also the   it was the uhm the the trigger that ma- made it easier for me that they were dead so I I I don’t

[10:32] goin- I’m not going to hurt them

[10:35] could you tell us a little about uhm the Himmels   what were their first names and what did they do for a living

[10:42] uh Miriam and Mendel Himmel   uh they were born in 19- uh 1906 so they were o- older than me with 36 years and uh   their approach to children wasn’t so uh easy for them   but uh I cannot say about this era being at with them that it was bad they acted as all

[11:14] the Holocaust survivor acted they didn’t tell anything about their past my past   uh it was uh regular all the people in Israel who were Holocaust survivor acted like this didn’t talk didn’t tell so they weren’t different from the others and uh   they

[11:43] were very fond of me and they w- didn’t want any way to lose me and I can understand them

[11:50] you were their only child ?

[11:52] yes   yes and uhm   that’s about the Himmels their they were parents as all the parents I think not not better not worse

[12:07] but when you were uhm 16 they told you that you are an adopted child

[12:15] yes but

[12:17] or or did you ask them because uhm at the beginning you mentioned that you uhm had some memories some pictures in your mind

[12:23] yes but uh   they didn’t uh verify it that’s the name ? well [waves her hand] they didn’t pay attention to this and uh the only thing they uh they told me »go to your friend t-« I had a very good friend here   in Meishar and they uh »tell your friend

[12:46] make it lighter on your heart   the burden«   that that was all I didn’t uh   I didn’t feel I want to look for I I didn’t have the the chance the   and Poland was then closed for uh coming all the archives were not open for people for of abroad   so this

[13:12] was the turn point the   the   what I read about Otwock was the turn point to begin the search   so we went t-   to   Sierakow to meet the Kaczmareks   as my letter didn’t reach them it was a quite a surprise they never thought they will uh meet me again   and

[13:40] uh   it was very exciting very touching   much of tears and hugs and uh   happiness   but   but I uhm   my hopes to find something about the Rebhuhns I had a story a very simple story my uhm   biological uh parents Rebhuhn gave me away to the Kaczmareks to hold me

[14:16] during the war   but it came up they didn’t know about uh Rebhuhn   only that that I said I am two and a half years and my name is Barbara Rebhuhn   so I didn’t come home with uh   uhm   more uh   details I didn’t know before   but I got with a very very   uh

[14:50]   big treasure   they uh they kept my   photos being about two and a half year three four and this was a thing I never had before I’ve asked my parents m- the Himmels »why do I   why do I not have other p- pictures photos as a as a   as a baby or like this«

[15:19] and they they said there was no   people do not did not used to photo it wasn’t so uh   they gave some reasons not so uh   never mind  

[15:40] then uh I began thinking that Rebhuhn is my uh biological family I began to   write to all uh   all the Rebhuhns in Israel

[15:55] and uh in uh and uh   I uh wrote an article was written in uh »The Hidden Child« it’s a newsletter telling my story looking for the Rebhuhns uh   one address was where I wrote to the Red Cross in München   I uh I tell I told my story and waited for answer

[16:27] that was   uhm   it was uh   not a long time until I got a letter from the Red Cross who enlighted me a little bit what happened to me from nine months until uh   uh   four something like this four and a half no not four and f- two and a half sorry   uhm   the letter

[17:01] says do you want to read the letter of uh

[17:03] do you want me to read it ?

[17:05] yes of course   from the Red Cross

[17:07] uhm   so uhm

[17:11] this one no ?

[17:14] that is   this one

[17:16] this one [leans forward; looks at the letter]   pause pause timeout [puts on her reading glasses] yes yes yes [gives the letter to Daniel Baranowski]

[17:26] okay so I’m gonna read uhm

[17:28] yes please

[17:30] the letter from uhm Deutsches Rotes Kreuz from uhm February the fifth uhm 1997 »Betreff uhm Rebhuhn Barbara geboren 1941 1942 sehr geehrter Herr Rebhuhn in einer Suchdienstangelegenheit erlauben wir uns Sie anzuschreiben über den Magen David Adom« which

[17:55] is the uhm

[17:57] red Mag- uh red uhm David cross David star

[18:02] [simultaneously:] star

[18:04] [simultaneously:] red David star in the equivalent of the German Red Cross in Israel   »über den«

[18:08] [simultaneously:] yes it was uh through them I I didn’t write uh straight I think it was the through the Red uh

[18:15] through the through the Magen David Adom and they uhm

[18:19] [simultaneously:] yes yes and they forward the letter

[18:21] and they forwarded the letter to the uhm Deutsches Rotes Kreuz

[18:23] I think so I can’t remember

[18:26] and this is the letter that the Deutsches Rotes Kreuz wrote to someone with the name Rebhuhn

[18:29] yeah

[18:32] at that time in your uh story you didn’t know who it was

[18:35] mhm ah that’s the letter to Rebhuhn ?

[18:38] that’s the letter to Rebhuhn

[18:40] okay

[18:42] »über den Magen David Adom in Israel Tel Aviv erreicht uns eine Anfrage von Frau Pnina Gutman die ihre leiblichen Eltern und Familienangehörige sucht   die Antragstellerin hieß vermutlich vor ihrer Adoption Barbara Rebhuhn zu Ihrer Information fügen wir

[18:56] der Einfachheit halber die Fotokopie einer Übersetzung aus dem Englischen bei dem Sie Weiteres entnehmen können«   that is your letter

[19:04] mhm

[19:06] »in unseren Unterlagen stellten wir für den Familiennamen Rebhuhn eine Karteikarte für Sie fest auf der vermerkt ist dass Ihre Heimatadresse 1939 Warschau war die auch für unsere Antragstellerin zutraf   unsere Bitte an Sie ist nunmehr die uns mitzuteilen

[19:23] ob in Ihrer Familie gegebenenfalls heute noch ein Kind vermisst wird auf das die Angaben von Frau Pnina Gutman zutreffen bitte haben Sie Verständnis für unsere Anfrage und antworten Sie uns bald   für Ihre Bemühungen danken wir im Voraus bestens mit freundlichen

[19:39] Grüßen im Auftrag« and this was uhm sent to Wolfgang Rebhuhn Schladstraße 58 in 46047 Oberhausen

[19:51] Oberhausen   yeah

[19:54] so they forwarded your letter to Wolfgang Rebhuhn and

[19:58] yes

[20:00] what did happen afterwards or what what did happen at the same time

[20:03] uh Wolfgang answered to this letter and I got it through the Magen David Adom and uh   it answers uh of uh some questions about my past   uh I I found another piece of the puzzle of my life I found uh   what happened to me since I was uh nine months until two

[20:31] and a half

[20:33] and when did you receive that letter ?

[20:36] uh it was the third March uh 1997

[20:38] so a month later roughly

[20:41] mhm   you can read it

[20:43] mhm   also that’s the letter of uhm Wolgang Rebhuhn written to the Magen David Adom in Israel uhm written in Oberhausen on February the eighth 1997 uhm Aktenzeichen I don’t know what that is in English uhm   is uhm eins sieben vier sechs Schrägstrich

[21:10] neun sechs »Suchanfrage Pnina Gutman Barbara Rebhuhn   sehr geehrte Damen und Herren vom DRK-Suchdienst München bekam ich die freudige Nachricht dass die von mir seit 1948 gesuchte Barbara Rebhuhn noch lebt   leider muss ich Ihnen mitteilen dass Barbara Rebhuhn

[21:27] nicht meine leibliche Schwester ist obwohl sie bei uns als Familienmitglied gelebt hat   Baschka so nannten wir Barbara kam 1942 43 mit neun Monaten in unsere Familie wir meine Mutter mein Vater meine Schwester und ich sind im Frühjahr 1942 aus dem Warschauer

[21:46] Ghetto geflüchtet   im Winter 1942 43 brachten Barbaras leibliche Eltern das Kind zu uns   da meine Mutter auch andere Juden versteckt hatte sie wollten einige Tage später nachkommen   leider schafften sie es nicht mehr da das Ghetto liquidiert wurde   von da

[22:06] an blieb Barbara als meine Schwester bei uns ich habe ihr beigebracht wie sie heißt Barbara Rebhuhn ihr immer wieder ihren Namen vorgesagt   leider wissen weder meine Schwester noch ich den Namen ihrer leiblichen Eltern Barbara sprach nur deutsch und vielleicht

[22:21] kann sie sich noch an die Kosenamen von meine Schwester Puppe und von mir Soni«

[22:27] [quietly; shaking her head:] can’t remember

[22:29] »erinnern meine Mutter nannte sie Mama Lotte   am ersten August 1944 brach der Warschauer Aufstand aus Ende August als man uns gefangen nahm wurden wir selektiert meine Mutter und meine Schwester kamen nach Tschenstochau und ich selbst kam in das KZ Mauthausen  

[22:44] bei dieser Selektierung ist Baschka von meiner Mutter und meiner Schwester getrennt worden   mein Vater und meine Mutter haben den Holocaust nicht überlebt   1948 habe ich verzweifelt versucht Baschka über den deutschen Suchdienst des DRK zu finden leider

[23:01] ohne Erfolg   es ist für meine Schwester und für mich eine riesige Freude dass Baschka lebt   anbei einige Fotos von Barbara mit der herzlichen Bitte sie an Frau Pnina Gutman weiterzuleiten   ich bitte Sie auch mir die Adresse von Frau Gutman mitzuteilen ich

[23:18] möchte mich umgehend mit ihr in Verbindung setzen da sie für mich immer noch meine kleine Schwester ist   im Voraus für Ihre Mühe meinen allerherzlichsten Dank   mit freundlichen Grüßen«

[23:27] yes   uh   after uh getting this letter we began uh I   sent him a fax a fax I wrote in Hebrew and a friend of mine translated it to German   and he answered and uh we decided to go to Oberhausen   uh   uhm   we went to Oberhausen uhm   and met Adele her husband

[24:02] uh Wolfgang his and his daughter and after that all the whole family uh   he couldn’t tell me much more than uh it’s written in the letter Adele told me about uh how I was a good baby I didn’t cry much and uh and uh they told I h- when I was brought to

[24:25] them I had an uh birth certificate under the name uh Barbara Węgliński and uh  

[24:36] what to tell   so after getting this information uh   I   I felt that I’m standing uh bef-   a wall is standing before me I don’t think I have uh more uh what to   to look for

[25:03] because I have no names my   uh my hope was that I will meet them and they will be able to tell me about my my parents more than it’s written in their letter but the only thing they can   they told that my parents were a young uh couple handsome and maybe

[25:26] Wa- Warsaw Ghetto fighters   uh I tried to look in the lists of all the ghetto fighters I I met the one who survived in Israel but nobody can tell me more about uh   a- about being in the ghetto or something like this   ah now I forgot the   not the main point

[25:55] but very important how did I get to the   Rebhuhns to Charlotte   uh my parents with the help of a German guard and his uh girlfriend Sonja Spiro uh succeeded to   uhm smuggle me out of the Warsaw Ghetto and they brought me to Charlotte uh Charlotte raised

[26:26] me as her own child and uh they were my uhm   my sister and my brother Wolfgang and Adele   uhm   what else   uhm   they told me what’s this the (thing) that’s written in the letter that that August 1944 the people of uh Warsaw all the people citizens of

[27:01] Warsaw were   taken to the uhm trains to the west Warsaw uh train station and there (they) undergo a selection Wolfgang was sent to Mauthausen Charlotte and Adele to   a labour uh camp close to Częstochowa and I was left uh   taken by force and left at the train

[27:31] station   uhm  

[27:34] so you don’t know how you got from the western train station to Milanówek that’s a missing part

[27:41] [simultaneously:] that’s still a   that’s still the question the question is open I don’t know and and then I can uh close the circle [gestures] and understand how I came to the Kaczmareks   that was the end of the way   I was brought to the Rebhuhns have

[28:03] been with them until being uh two and a half years then separated then found by the Kaczmareks then uh   put in the orphanage and then adopted by the Himmels and that’s uh the end of the story till now   I’m missing only one piece of the puzzle the first

[28:26] nine months   that’s what I’m looking for  

[28:31] what did you uhm find out about uhm the Rebhuhns   you did some research and you went to uhm uhm the Rebhuhns in 1997 what can you tell us about uhm the woman who gave you shelter Charlotta   and the family and her husband

[28:54] I think that they were special people   to endanger their lives and their children’s life and the   to shelter me uh   it isn’t so usual uh   a young woman with two children her husband is away in a concentration camp and she   takes this risk   to hide me and

[29:22] to to save my life   uh I think I was born m- more than once once when I was born in the ghetto   second when I was given to Charlotte and she saved my life   third was the Kaczmarek and fourth was the Himmels   who kep-   who enabled me to grow up and to to study

[29:49] and to become [laughs] an ordinary woman I think

[29:55] and Charlotte was a German uhm woman

[29:59] Charlotte was a German she was married to a Jew

[30:01] she was a Christian

[30:03] [clears her throat] she was Christian and therefore she was a   he was expelled from Berlin uh after the Crystal Night and she went after him she uh   uhm   there was   moment I will remember   the German proposed her to divorce her husband and so she can stay

[30:28] safe in Berlin and nothing will happen to her but she didn’t agree of course and maybe other did it she didn’t and she went after him to Poland   at the beginning she was with the children uh in the Warsaw Ghetto and she succeeded to escape from (them)

[30:50] I don’t know which way and   it’s   it’s really a a heroic uh thing to do to be in such a situation not in her home in a   in another country   with the two children and uh do this thing I think it’s uh   uh   uh I think Yad Vashem uh thought the same   Charlotte

[31:26] uh got the ar- the order of Righteous Among the Nation   it was a uh   uhm   it was a very honourable event in Yad Vashem the Rebhuhns came to Israel uh   and uh got the the remark   the   the medal   so I think it’s a sort of a   a good end for them that their

[32:00] mother was rewarded for the for what she has done

[32:05] what did uhm Wolfgang and Adele say about their parents do they did they have any recollections or any memories

[32:16] [simultaneously:] with my parents ?

[32:18] about about uhm their parents

[32:20] about their parents

[32:22] they were how old were they ?

[32:24] uh

[32:27] they were born in the 1930s ? Wolfgang and Adele ?

[32:29] Wolfgang was born in 1927 and Adele 1930   uh   I don’t remember

[32:36] did did did you uhm

[32:38] she was 38 I think then when she took me I think about this

[32:42] mhm   and did you talk to Wolfgang about the events of uhm the Crystal Night in Germany did he remember how they got to Warsaw

[32:52] no

[32:55] you didn’t talk to him about that

[33:00] no no   uh and I find that uh that talking about the past was uh not so easy it was uh   difficult to remember and to go back to the past to all those uhm   to all those (day) from   he he was in some in more than one camp he ran away he had uh   also a long

[33:30] story they wi- didn’t uh want to talk much about the past   it makes them nervous   as they said

[33:40] and when you came to uhm uh Charlotte uhm her husband was not with her

[33:48] no he was already in Treblinka   he perished I think he wasn’t alive (any more)

[33:55] mhm   so you lived with the Rebhuhns for like two and a half years

[34:02] yeah (_)

[34:05] as their child you were not hidden by them

[34:07] no   it was open   they said I was very clever if I w- w- was asked in Polish what’s my name I said »Barbara Węgliński« if in uh German I said »Barbara Rebhuhn« I don’t know what it means but   maybe one way of surviving I don’t know they that’s

[34:32] what they told me

[34:35] and you learned German you spoke German with the Rebhuhns

[34:37] I can’t hear you

[34:39] you spoke German with the Rebhuhns

[34:42] yes my broken Yiddish I make it German   uh I   we we all uh say that the hearts are talking   the huggings the kisses   we didn’t uh need to talk too much   and the their uh their son the youngest son and the the daughter-in-law and the one son-in-law speak

[35:11] English so it was a little bit easier they can under- understand and translate   it was a sort of a   of conversation [smiles] translating all the time

[35:26] mhm   and Charlotta gave shelter to other Jews as well

[35:31] yes

[35:33] mhm but they were hidden

[35:35] they were hidden

[35:37] (because they were grown-ups)

[35:40] [simultaneously:] there were (about) eight person every time   uh   but I don’t know about them now

[35:42] but you have got some photographs uhm   of her would you like to show them to the camera ?

[35:48] [leans forward] which one

[35:51] and say something about it   or perhaps firstly say how you got the photos

[35:57] ah this one (__) oh my God   [looks at several photos] can I show [shows a photo] I got this photo by fax   uh through the red uh Mage- through the Magen David Adom the first thing I did is to run to my album of photos and uh to look to the photo of my daughter

[36:25] of the eldest daughter elder daughter the same pose she is standing the same pose as this one and it was really exciting

[36:33] where where is that that is   that is in the ga- no show it uh uh it’s best to show it to the camera that is you at the age of   three

[36:44] of no this is uh not three this is uh maybe two I don’t know

[36:51] two in a garden

[36:53] yes   yes   this one   [shows photo] is very precious to me this is Wolfgang and me Wolfgang is about 16 wearing his father’s suit he looks much elder than he was then and it’s close to a fountain in Warsaw and what’s very exciting and interesting in

[37:23] this story that I found this fountain and ha- have the same photo on the same place and [laughs] while being there I heard a mother calling »Basia ! Basia ! chodź chodź do mnie« »come to me« [laughs] so it was mo- much more exciting uh what is this ? ah  

[37:46] two pictures photos which are   which can show more than words how I was loved loved and kept by Charlotte   she’s holding me in her arms and looking   with love   I can say   [shows another photo] and this is the white uh children carriage how do you call it  

[38:14] wooden white and uh Adele told me there was uh   many clothes in it for me   my mother sent   uh

[38:27] so this carriage was uhm   uh

[38:31] brought out of the of the ghetto

[38:33] uh yeah and that was from your parents

[38:35] yes

[38:38] mhm

[38:40] yes

[38:42] so you were probably brought out of the ghetto in that carriage

[38:44] yes   it’s a wonder how I di- how they did it   uh I think I found the place where this picture was taken but I’m not sure   can’t remember

[38:54] you got these pictures from uhm Wolfgang

[38:59] from Wolfgang they’re cut off out   from his uh album you can see they were cut cut out

[39:07] mhm   uhm and

[39:11] [simultaneously:] and I sent him only copies and (I) said I have the right to have the originals that’s for me to have

[39:18] so he kept them all these years hoping that he would find you

[39:22] I can’t I can’t tell how   it’s [shrugs] in all those camps and he has it he told me he put his it under his shoulder sometimes   maybe to show Charlotte [shows a photo]   okay   and that’s you can say some some sort of happy end being in Yad Vashem

[39:58] [shows next photo] getting the   medal

[40:01] and that’s you together with Wolfgang and Adele

[40:04] Wolfgang and Adele

[40:06] did uhm Wolfgang show you the photos when you were in Oberhausen ?

[40:12] yes

[40:14] uhm so that was the first time you saw these photos

[40:16] yes

[40:19] how did you react when you saw that

[40:21] I was shocked both the meetings uh with Kaczmarek and with Rebhuhns was a sort of sh- of a shock a good shock but a shock [laughs] to find out something I was alive before six before being six and also f- of Kaczmareks if I can show it now [shows a photo]

[40:41] this one drived me crazy I said to my husband »look how nice I was a beautiful girl look at those hairs hair long hair« [laughs]   okay   and this one now we are at the Kaczmareks we are a little bit mixed but never mind it was always all was mixed in my

[41:09] life so never mind uh [shows a photo] this photo is with the Kaczmareks   and what’s amazing about it that you can see behind the chimneys where the storks lived and uh   coming to Sierakow I’ve seen the same chimneys and other storks but storks and   this

[41:36] was this ensured me I’m on the right place uhm

[41:42] uh could you describe your first meeting with Bogdan

[41:45] [gestures for the interviewer to speak louder] a little bit [laughs]

[41:48] your your first meeting with Bogdan could you describe it what that was like meeting him again

[41:53] uhm   uh as I have told the letter didn’t uh reach them so it was a quite a surprise and uh we had some person a person who speaks Polish but they didn’t speak English so it wasn’t translation it was my broken Polish and he let me understand what they

[42:19] mean in Polish but light Polish Polish-light   and uh   of course uh   uh seeing those photos was something as if not in this world it was a dream and then he take out a uhm   an article written in 1992 before knowing we are going to meet before knowing if I am

[42:51] alive where I live what is with me that shows that it isn’t a   that it’s true that it’s real that it’s out of the heart telling how I came to them how they found me and uh   how they are uh   uhm   missing me it was a great uhm   how to say it   a portion

[43:20] of love to to see that I was loved and uh the feel- their feelings their true feelings pure feelings to me   what else   uh I was told the by the Kaczmareks   that uh   uh another (introduction) I had they told then Charlott- uh   Stanisława came to take me from

[43:53] the Red Cross in Milanówek she heard in the other room in the   the attendant of the Red Cross telling to me »Basia your mother came to take you home«   makes me cry [touched]  

[44:14] so uh   if you have questions it’s okay I don’t think I have something to  

[44:23] add except of the   mhm   except of the hope I have to someone can see this and uh   give me more details about my past about my parents about my family   uh maybe someone has the picture of uh the photo me and uh Charlotte or the white carriage or something

[44:55] uh   my parents might have written maybe in the States they told Charlotte they are leaving me only for a few days and uh if they will not survive the [on the verge of tears]   the Rebhuhns have to   to be in touch with their family in the States but as all

[45:25] in the whole story no names I have no names of my parents   that’s all [laughs]

[45:33] but uhm didn’t you say your parents said that they had relatives in the States   they said it to the (_)

[45:42] [simultaneously:] yes yes   they said to Charlotte if you can if we will not do it we’ll not survive you have to be in touch with our rich family in United States   I I thought maybe it’s the Węgliński maybe but I searched for Węgliński and nothing came

[45:58] up no results   I’m doing this although it’s very difficult to me of course   uhm   uh   to make a step a step forward to find my parents maybe this can help [shrugs] that’s all

[46:25] uhm I’ve I’ve got a question concerning the Himmels uhm I don’t know if I got it right beforehand uhm   they were also survivors

[46:34] yes

[46:37] uhm but they never talked about their experiences during their whole lifetime

[46:40] yes   they told a b- little bit about Tashkent but uh nothing about me or   I can

[46:51] [simultaneously:] and

[46:53] I can only be proud and happy that uh I was chosen from other children in Otwock because uh Miriam Himmel came I can remember with fruits and uh sweets and uh   spent with me a time and uh I met another woman she told me she went with Miriam Himmel the first

[47:13] time to Otwock and she was looking for a   nice g- looking girl so I can be proud I’m nice I was nice [laughs] she loved me and uh [shakes her head] choosed me

[47:27] uh what I wanted to ask about Otwock you said that in 1996 you suddenly remembered Otwock and that’s what triggered everything uh what did you remember ? did you remember the name or did you maybe see a photo of Otwock that made you remember

[47:44] I I had the   the picture of Otwock in uhm I remember I remembered the right side was the office that I was called to the office I remember the   backyard many uh plants and uh flowers I can even smell the the smell of those flowers [laughs] I know how they

[48:07] are called I think the hat of the priest or something uh it orange colour   this can- this cannot help me in my search yes it’s just [gestures] talking around [laughs] uhm   that’s it I don’t think I have more   to say

[48:29] mhm   uhm the Himmels died in   at the end of the

[48:34] raise your voice

[48:36] the Himmels died at the end of the

[48:39] uh 88

[48:41] [simultaneously:] -80 1980s

[48:43] 1988

[48:45] mhm and

[48:48] they were 82   and sick and uh

[48:50] and you said before that with respect to them you

[48:52] yes

[48:54] also with respect to them you did not start to to do research or to ask (_)

[48:57] [simultaneously:] sure   I w- I wouldn’t dare I wouldn’t dare I would have killed them if I would would have done it

[49:00] ya you kept it for yourself

[49:03] yes I did I   and I didn’t uh feel I needed those times and uh because of lack of uh information as they said I was find   uh found nothing

[49:15] and it was very hard in those times

[49:18] yes what can I do it   only after uh getting those lists and those names I uh began the search   the great run   it was only for half an year all I found was uh during April 96 uh 1996 and uh March 1997   that’s about

[49:41] now in order at least to try to uhm fill the gaps a little bit uhm there was that period uhm when you were at the Warsaw station western uhm station I don’t know and uhm Milanówek you were found in in Mil-

[50:03] it was in Warsaw and wa-   I was found in Milanówek that’s a that’s a gap in the   in in the facts

[50:10] and the distance between Warsaw and Milanówek

[50:12] about twenty kilometres

[50:14] twenty kilometres

[50:16] I didn’t walk by feet   I was found in a c- in a   in a   train wagon and uh   I think I was uhm   taken with other children who sit there other orphans or people who waited for a   for the train   I don’t know

[50:39] you you do of course you do not have any uhm memories about that you (don’t) have any pictures or

[50:46] no I I have s- one memory standing uh between ruins in a nowhere so standing on the   the edge of the road and uh ruins about me it might be Warsaw   and   maybe maybe because of the stories of the Kaczmarek I think I can remember a   a car how do you say a car

[51:15] who takes goods not a private uh a truck   uh going with the into a truck and going and this was the way I went to the Kaczmarek left Żyrardow and went to Sierakow   uhm   only Stanisława and me went by the car it was a Russian uh truck and they went from Żyrardów

[51:42] to   to Sieraków

[51:45] mhm

[51:48] I

[51:50] [simultaneously:] you showed us an article yesterday the article that you mentioned that uhm the uh Kaczmareks had written about you and they said in that article that when you came to them you described a woman in white who had uh taken you to the train could

[52:04] you maybe say (__)

[52:06] [simultaneously:] yes   yes   it might be the Red Red Cross uh attendant in Warsaw the one she put me on the train uh   I have a suspicion that uh I was uh   that that in this train was the were was the orphanage from Warsaw which was uh uh taken to with the permit

[52:29] of the German it was uh t- taken to Milanówek the children were placed in a uh   uh silk factory   and uh   they (got) food and the name of this uh person is uh mentioned somewhere I don’t remember his name he gave his uh factory there and for the children  

[52:55] I think maybe I got with them I don’t know   in the letter of uh Kaczmarek wr- is written another story that I was in the RGO uh how do you say RGO   rada główna (on- rada) główna on-   rada główna o- I don’t remember I have it written so it it’s

[53:27] a sort of an institute a sort of a place but I couldn’t find that I’ve   uh I have been to Milanówek I uh   I met the secretary of the town mayor   uh she she published also the story in a   in the newsletter of Milanówek maybe someone knows something but

[53:53] nothing happened no   response from   [shrugs] from anyone

[54:00] from Milanówek to Żyrardow uhm how far is that

[54:05] uh no in Milanówek uh they fou- they were ex- the Kaczmareks were expelled from Sierakow to Żyrardow Żyrardow is also about twenty kilometres from uh   Warsaw

[54:19] okay   and a friend of the Kaczmareks brought you to them

[54:24] uh no attendant for the Red Cross

[54:26] ah an attendant for the Red Cross

[54:29] and uh   uhm   so many names I got mixed   Stanisława went to Milanówek by uh carriage with horses of course not a car and then she take me took me yes as I have told the she heard the attendants saying »here is your mother coming«   that’s it   I’m going

[54:57] again again the same it become bothering no [drinks]

[55:01] uhm during uhm the time between 1948 and uhm the end of the eighties when uhm you accepted the Himmels as uhm your adoptive parents uhm you established your own life here in Israel   uhm   could you tell us a little about a little bit about how it was to come

[55:28] to Israel

[55:31] [nods] yes   uh   it was not so easy because it was easy but uh it not so easy but uhm   uh   this whole settlement was a   of people who came uh from uh   Egypt from Poland from uh   England so there was a mixture of languages nobody s- spoke uh Hebrew so it

[56:03] wasn’t so bad that I didn’t know so good uh Hebrew   uh   my parents uh the Himmels made a very very extraorginary extraordinary change in their life because in uh Lodz he was a shoemaker and she was a house- uh -wife they had a uhm   how do you say they

[56:32] have a a woman help them about three times a week and they came here and be- become uh   uhm   how do you say agriculture   how do you say   they begin to began to work in the fields   and it was very unusual for them to to to   to work such a hard work they

[57:05] never seen a a uhm a chicken only in the plate and sudden they have to raise chicken and uh vegetable and it wa-   it’s really courageous f- of them to come at the age about uh 44 and begin a new life   for me w- it was easier as I’ve said all the all the

[57:34] children were newcomers to Israel it was new to them as to me   and uh  

[57:42] I began to study with the   school high school and uh   and then it was those years when uh being 18 I was a little bit uh   uh   what can I say   studying was not in my head let’s say like

[58:06] this and I went to the army and then I married after a year I married Moshe and only in uh   in 19- no 1977 I think I began to   to study again I made my uh   exams uh mature exams and went to the uh   uhm   nursing uh nursing uh school and uh university made my

[58:44] BA in nursing and   it was after I had my children I my first daughter was born when I was uh about 21 I married by 19 and uh second when I was 26   now   now they have children of their own Orna is 47 has a daughter Noa 23 and a son uh Asaf uh he’s serving

[59:20] in the army and uh younger daughter Ilana Lani is married has two children Aviv which means spring he was born in the spring and uh he’s twelve and a half and a daughter uh Shay which means a present and she is uh nine and a half   uh I worked in the intensive

[59:48] unit care from for uh   oh my God   just a moment how do you say pre- pre- preterm uh preterm uh babies   it’s an intensive care unit it’s uhm   it’s a very hard work uh   but interesting   it was satisfying it was good I worked for 25 years   what else can

[1:00:28] I tell   [shakes her head] I don’t know

[1:00:30] uhm   in all that time in Israel do you remember any moments when pictures or or glimpses came to your mind about your past uhm or or

[1:00:46] [simultaneously:] yes it was at the beginning

[1:00:48] [simultaneously:] or was it really kept in a in a drawer as you said

[1:00:50] it was kept in the drawer I’ve I’ve talked about it much with my friend   but uh   I don’t know doesn’t ma- it didn’t make a deep expression on someone [laughs]   but uh I’m sure it affected me I I uh at the beginning I wasn’t such a good student

[1:01:17] not as not as after that that I finished the BA with a I don’t know how you say with extra [gestures]   success   uh I can’t say I thought   I thought much about it because I didn’t see a any   any point of beginning as I say   nothing to think about I can

[1:01:47] only imagine

[1:01:50] mhm and there wasn’t a moment when you suddenly realised I’ve seen that before or something like that or I’ve heard that before

[1:01:59] no no I don’t think I don’t think so  

[1:02:02] did you talk to your husband about it ?

[1:02:07] sure   sure but not much I didn- I I find out that uh as the years pass I’m more interested in this issue [smiles] I miss them uh not them uh   personally but I miss this part of my life uh   I think about it [laughs]

[1:02:30] do you want to show

[1:02:34] [simultaneously:] it’s amazing it’s not uh it’s the not like uh   uh   not usual (I don’t know) to think about it now when I have children and grandchildren what uh will it do to me to find the   but nevertheless I think it’s important a person will

[1:02:55] knew who he is   bothers me

[1:02:59] you said yesterday that the Himmels were wonderful

[1:03:04] [interrupting:] raise your voice

[1:03:07] uh you said yesterday that the Himmels were wonderful grandparents to your daughters uh what do your daughters and grandchildren say about your search now do they support you or

[1:03:16] uhm   uh   they younger was more more uh for it that I that I’ll search I think because she is not so uhm   how do you say podobna or

[1:03:32] similar ?

[1:03:34] similar   she is blond and she she’s other than me   the elder is more like me so she said »find your mother maybe I am like her maybe I’m s-   uh maybe your brother maybe« I didn’t have brothers and sister because they were uh »maybe I am like your

[1:03:53] mother« maybe this made her to   and uh   I think after telling the story   the elder uh   daughter said »and in spite of all this you uh you are perfect« or »you are« something like this [laughs] in spite of all those uh troubles and

[1:04:19] would you like to show the photos

[1:04:23] which one the Himmels [leans forward; looks for a photo]

[1:04:25] of no of your uhm of your children

[1:04:27] ah   I didn’t show the   I didn’t show

[1:04:33] [simultaneously:] you you

[1:04:35] the Kaczmareks at the   it was in Warsaw with our uhm   [shows a photo] this is uh Bogdan and Janina getting their uh orders their medals it was in Warsaw

[1:04:48] and Janina is

[1:04:50] [simultaneously:] in Opera Kameralna Janina is is uh   there are two Janinas one is my sister Polish sister one is the uhm   wife of uh Bogdan

[1:05:02] mhm ach ja okay

[1:05:05] this was exciting   I I talked in uh I said only in Polish »moja kochana rodzina ja kocham was was bardzo« it means »my dear uh   Polish family I love you very much« and all the other was in Hebrew   now I show you   what else   I didn’t show the Himmels

[1:05:30] and that’s not fair so you will you will have to make the mixture   this is Miriam and [shows a photo; then looks down] I always think I ha- have my   glasses somewhere   okay   now where are my children   I have two family pictures   let’s begin with the

[1:05:57] elder one   I put my finger here because she doesn’t like this photo so I make it so [shows photo]   let begin from right to left   this is the husband of my daughter   her daughter Noa   23 years old who is ah that’s my daughter Orna what is here that’s

[1:06:24] the son Asaf   that’s made not not a long time ago   which is the second (photo) where I have ah akhat shtaim shalosh   [shows next photo] yes that is the daughter Ilana Lani   this is her husband Yossi   here on the right is Aviv and this is the   smallest one  

[1:06:52] Shay   they find that Shay is uh similar to me   I have pictures as a child and (__) [sound interference] oh   I forget I think always it’s the   okay   what else   ah this is the photo she (sings) that’s me and the photo I got from the Kaczmareks   I don’t

[1:07:20] know what happened the Himmels made it uh large this one in large and another one I don’t know why they did it   but this one I found at the Kaczmareks   it was taken just before leaving Poland   (okay) and what else   did I show Charlotte ?

[1:07:46] ya I think you showed it

[1:07:49] the Charlotte and the Kaczmareks   you will have to mix it where is Charlotte vanished   you have seen Charlotte ? [shows photo]   okay   and this is s-   Franciszek and Stanisława [shows next photo]   Kaczmarek   okay   so   waiting for a happy end   yeah [laughs]

[1:08:25] uhm   I’ve got two uh questions that come to my mind now uhm   why did the Himmels rename you or gave you a new name

[1:08:35] [gestures for the interviewer to speak louder] ah why did

[1:08:38] [simultaneously:] why did why did the Himmels gave you a new name what was that name and the second question is concerning your birthday because you do not know your actual [underlines:] birth date uhm   did you celebrate your birthday uhm on the day the the

[1:08:51] Himmels uhm   uhm

[1:08:54] yes   yes   th- according the birth certificate I was born in Warsaw   the 14th July 1942   and I don’t know why I think there wa- when we came to Israel there was a mistake in the writing and they wrote uh the 15 of July and that’s the day I’m celebrating  

[1:09:18] but now I think we decided it’s too hot in uh July it can be a- any other so I   I   have birthday every day

[1:09:30] mhm

[1:09:32] I have to celebrate every day   I think there is a reason to celebrate every day that I survived all this

[1:09:40] and your name ? uh the Himmels changed your name

[1:09:46] I can’t hear you

[1:09:48] your name uh because the Himmels then called you Paulina and Pnina

[1:09:52] [simultaneously:] Paulina Paulina and then in uh in Jewish pearl and in uh Polish is uh perełka and here is translation is Pnina means pearl   and I’m called since we met uh this is very important   not for the search since we were met uh the Rebhuhns and

[1:10:15] Rebhuhn and uh Rebhuhn Wolfgang told I was named Baschka since that day I am Baschka to my husband   and very close friends otherwise I am Pnina but I’m called Baschka and [shakes her head] I think it’s beautiful [laughs]

[1:10:33] so uhm   just to   sum it up in a way   uhm the first thing you know uhm is about Charlotte Rebhuhn and that she was from Berlin   and when when when was she born ?

[1:10:57] I would have to make the   uh  

[1:11:03] the beginning of the century ? no she was younger

[1:11:07] uh no she was younger uh   let make the   I think she was 36 or something like this   can it be ? when I came to her it’s too mu-   yes her her son was 15 or 14   makes sense

[1:11:25] but you   but you of course you don’t know where she lived in Berlin

[1:11:28] uh uhm

[1:11:31] is there something you (_)

[1:11:34] I have some uh document where they give their uh testimony to Yad Vashem they have to tell their the whole story there is written the exact name of the street in Berlin

[1:11:45] mhm yeah   so we can look that up

[1:11:48] Schönhaus- (_) I don’t remember I can’t

[1:11:52] and this Sonja (Spira) uhm   who helped uhm getting you out of the ghetto she also came from Berlin ?

[1:12:00] yes   she came from Berlin she was a Sonja was 19 those   in this time

[1:12:06] sorry ?

[1:12:08] uh Sonja was 19

[1:12:11] 19 mhm

[1:12:13] in this in this time   that’s all I think she also lived in a   uh   what’s the street   Krochmalna in Warsaw   I don’t know I hope I didn’t forget a very important uh data data  

[1:12:36] okay [to Barbara Kurowska:] if you do not have any more questions   then we thank you very very much

[1:12:48] thank you

[1:12:50] thank you

[1:12:53] uhm for your hospitality uhm   and we hope that this interview perhaps might do something good for your search

[1:13:00] yes that’s my hope that’s my dream that’s my hope   that for   that’s why I’m doing it otherwise I wouldn’t do it   it’s not so easy   not only because the language it’s not easy

[1:13:13] mhm perhaps I’ve got   can I ask one last question ?

[1:13:17] you can ask as much as you want

[1:13:19] uhm   uhm because in our conversation uhm   in the conversation that we had before this interview you at one time mentioned that you do not know if you are really a Holocaust survivor   uhm could you comment on that

[1:13:34] uh yes [laughs]

[1:13:37] because this is a question that we’re dealing with in in nearly every interview   the lack uhm uhm of memories

[1:13:44] yes   so I can s- say this   I was born into the Holocaust and I survived but between those two points I had only miracles I have some miracles because not everyone who was born in the Holocaust in the Warsaw Ghetto survived   got the uh met the the proper uh

[1:14:12] persons in the proper   place and uh and were willing to to help   to shelter   I don’t know wheth- it if it’s appropriate but I think everyone has to know this poem   to understand how brave those people was   I do it also in the   to show how brave there

[1:14:41] those people were

[1:14:44] mhm

[1:14:46] [shaking head:] not for me

[1:14:48] you won’t like to read it

[1:14:51] Barbara maybe   it’s okay with you ? because I am make it a Hebrew with the music the Hebrew music

[1:14:55] uh so the poem is called »Righteous of the World« by Chaim Chefer

[1:15:01] Chaim Che- [nods]

[1:15:04] »I hear this title and it makes me think about the people who saved me I ask and ask ›oh   my dear God   could I have done the same thing ?‹ in a sea of hate stood my home   could I shelter a foreign son in my home ? would I be willing along with my family

[1:15:19] constantly be threatened by certain evil ? sleepless dark nights watching for ou- watching out for noise hearing footsteps of certain evil   would I be able to understand every sign   would I be ready for this   could I walk like this among those who could betray  

[1:15:35] not one day not one week   but so many years   there a suspicious neighbor there a look and here a sound   for that one warm brotherly clasping of my hand not having any pension not having anything for this   because a person to person must be a human being   because

[1:15:55] a human being comes at this time through so I ask you and ask you once more   could I have done the same if I was in their place ? it was they who went to war every day   it was they who made the world a place for me   it was they   the pillars   the Righteous brother  

[1:16:12] who this day this world is founded by   for your courage and for your warm extended hand in front of you the Righteous I bow«

[1:16:21] that’s right   that’s right   uh I wanted to say maybe off record that uh

[1:16:34] ya okay so we’re gonna uhm

[1:16:37] off record [cut; sitting next to Pnina Gutman is her husband Moshe Gutman] it was another coincidence that this interview was right on our 49th wedding anniversary and maybe it’s the   uh   it’s a sign for a good future   not ours but the interview’s   the

[1:16:57] outcome of the interview [laughs]   yes

[1:17:03] [to Moshe Gutman:] I don’t know if you want to say something

[1:17:05] and and what about the future of our country ?

[1:17:08] ah ! that’s another (_)

[1:17:10] no future

[1:17:12] no fut- oh ! (sha sha)

[1:17:15] [simultaneously:] oh never never

[1:17:17] uh and I have to say that uh   uh   if not his help I couldn’t do it   that’s for sure he was with me all the time   flying   flying to Poland to Germany as quick as possible and not thinking about the expenses about his time about leaving work   he understood

[1:17:47] me good   uh   there were uh many people even friends that uh said »what a- are you what is it uh for you to look now for your parents   what will it do to you   what’s the reason what for ?« but he was with me and said it’s uh very important and that   that’s

[1:18:14] it   I have to thank him

[1:18:16] oh

[1:18:18] oh   that’s it that’s the happy end [looks at her husband; laughs]