Sabina van der Linden- Wolanski (*08.07.1927, Boryslaw)

[0:00] wir haben den siebten Mai 2010 begrüßen Sabina van der Linden-Wolanski im Ort der Information am Denkmal für die ermordeten Juden Europas in Berlin wir führen ein Interview für das Projekt »Sprechen trotz allem« für die Stiftung ähm ist Barbara Kurowska

[0:18] die Interviewerin Uwe Seemann ähm ist für die Technik zuständig und ebenfalls anwesend sind Meike Haunschild die momentan hospitiert im Projekt und Kjeld Hansen der Ehemann von Sabina wir haben uns im Vorhinein darauf verständigt dass wir nicht das Interview

[0:37] was Sabina vor ähm 15 Jahren ähm dem »Visual History Archive« der ähm »Shoah Foundation« damals gegeben hat ähm wiederholen wollen und deswegen nicht mit der üblichen ähm Routine anfangen und nach den ähm Geburtsdaten und den Daten der Eltern fragen

[0:55] ähm sondern mit dem Grund für Sabinas Besuch in Berlin heute anfangen wollen [cut] vergessen zu erwähnen hatte ich noch dass mein Name Daniel Baranowski ist

[1:08] okay now we're gonna start uhm Sabina you arrived in Berlin two days ago

[1:16] yes

[1:20] uhm and besides this interview you've got some other things to do uhm here could you tell us about the reasons uhm why you are in Berlin in May 2010

[1:27] well the main reason uhm is the book launch it's uh the German translation of my book which originally come out in English and I'm very very excited about it I I think it is uh for me a quite extraordinary event I hope to that I will do it justice   I intend

[1:49] uh to say a few words in the opening some of them in German which I'm very bad at [laughs] but i- it was something that I really and truly uhm did not believe was going to happen even though Uwe   when he first saw the book in English said »oh we have to have

[2:09] it translated into German« I said »oh yeah you know [laughs] maybe (__) this will happen« well it's happening and that's the reason for my   stay in Berlin this time

[2:20] you already saw uhm the German edition of the book yesterday (_)

[2:24] [simultaneously:] for the German edition of the book yes yes and uh while I’m not very fluent in German but I have started reading it and I think that the translation is absolutely wonderful   and uh there are some people involved in i- in it one of them

[2:46] is Barbara [laughs] who uh insisted on translating pages from the book which I wrote in Polish   not from the English translation but from the original and I think it’s absolutely wonderful I’m very grateful for that

[3:00] when did you start writing the book when can you tell us about first plans when was that

[3:09] uh   when I start the book ?

[3:12] mhm

[3:14] well I think it’s about two years ago I think that the events of 2005 led to it

[3:17] mhm

[3:19] uhm the people who’ll be reading the book and most of the people know how old I am so I really did not expect that at this stage of my life that is coming to an end eventually [laughs] (the) things would happen and the events of 2005 led eventually

[3:35] to the

[3:38] book because uh I was approached by a well-known publisher Harper Collins to write my memoirs which we can talk about later   because uh I was completely unprepared for that   writing memoirs it’s a very complex   and uh emotionally extremely demanding very

[4:03] hard   and I wasn’t quite sure that I wanted to do it   because it meant going back to the time of my life which I   remembered very well but I don’t want to keep dealing with that all the time   so I hesitated for quite a while it’s also extremely intrusive

[4:27] into not only my one life but the life of my family my children my grandchildren and so on   and whilst one does not have to reveal everything in the memoirs whatever one writes about it has to be absolutely honest and truthful   so I had many questions and

[4:45] I had to   question myself and come to terms whether »am I going to do it« ? and »why am I’m going to do if I agree to do it« well I thought that my survival   had perhaps to have some meaning and that if I can pass on to the next generation   what has happened

[5:13] to a person like myself who was lucky enough to survive that   I think it’s perhap- perhaps like a small seed you plant something and you hope that things will grow   perhaps something will come out from the book that will appeal to people who will understand

[5:32] the horrors of the past but also that something positive can happen as well and I as a survivor to a degree am an example that we can learn from our m- horrific terrible experiences and to rebuild our lives and to keep on going and to give it a meaning and

[5:55] a purpose   so this is what I’m trying to do with my life now   I hope   that it will work it will work for some people and thus I think that uh my own children have learned a lot from that   and I think that it’s very important to ask yourself the question

[6:15] however relevant are the experience from the Holocaust in day to day life today   sometimes it’s so terrible to look at the paper and to try to read the newspapers and to know what’s going on I mean we have all these examples what happened in Rwanda what

[6:34] happened in Nigeria what happened in Yugoslavia former Yugoslavia and it is very easy to to become very despondent   and to say »well have we learnt anything at all« ? when I say »we« I think we as people not necessary we as Jews I think all of us are responsible  

[6:59] by nature I am uh an optimist I’m very lucky I was born that way not that I have had many causes for being optimistic at times but I think that it’s a gift given to somebody at the birth most probably   so I’m always trying to find something positive

[7:21] and even these horror stories you hear of people that had the courage   to do something good and positive and to help another human being and I draw on that   and I think as lo- as long as there are s- some goodwill among us   so I like to think that perhaps

[7:46] we will be able to put a goodwill   to be the important element of life and not the evil which is (in) there   I sound like a preacher (the most __) [laughs] that’s how I think   and part of my life now is trying to contribute in this way  

[8:12] for instance back

[8:15] in Australia I belong to an organisation which is called »Courage to Care«   and uh it is exactly what it says it is courage to care we have uh displaced we have uh s- it consist of people who are the Holocaust survivors who tell their stories then there

[8:43] are guides who are specially trained to explain to people to specially to young school children because uh the way the organisation works is that we go to small towns and speak and try to organise schools as many as possible to come to the exp- exposition

[9:07] where we show the examples   and we talk to school children and of course if adult wants to come they’ll come as well and there are examples of what many decent human being have done risking their own lives   and trying to save Jewish people from extermination

[9:33] and then of course they required an enormous courage because it was punishable by death   and one always asks oneself what really is courage ? how does it happen ? is that a decision that one takes »I am going to do this and this« ? or is it a reaction to something

[9:57] that happens spontaneously ? or is it   I wouldn’t say the ignorance but not realising the danger which is associated with it but then I come back to it but those who knew the danger they knew that if they are caught they’ll be punishable by death so how

[10:19] how does it (really) work ? I don’t have all the answers I have many questions but don’t have many answers and then when you bring it to yourself you say »well how would you react in (a) situation like this would I have the guts and the courage to take

[10:36] the person into my life knowing that when we are discovered I’ll be executed or be killed anonymously I really don’t know I I think that heroes are not made in advance I think it happens spontaneously very often but uh of course I don’t have an answer

[10:56] to that but it is something that is always interesting the reaction of people   and (and I s- say) even in day to day life and in day to day situations I try to say to myself »don’t react just act the way you really want to act don’t react to somebody

[11:18] else’s behaviour« but it’s easier said than done so I don’t know it’s just one of th- the things that occupies my mind very much  

[11:25] and then   can you really teach anybody just by telling them the stories   I live in a in a country which I still can call

[11:40] a lucky country Australia is so far removed from Europe and particularly when we go to I I go quite often to school I’m taught uh (__) and I’m telling them my stories and I’m asking to tell the Holocaust survival stories and I look this beautiful young

[12:03] people with their innocent faces born in Australia how can they comprehend whatever has happened ? we are told that the best way to teach is by example well how can I give them examples ? and yet I’m really surprised at the end of my   talk to them I’m surrounded

[12:30] by the children and asking many many questions   and some of the questions are repetitive [browses in papers] specially   the question one   »do you believe in God ?« [smiles]   it’s not an easy question to answer [laughs] I am conscious to the fact that I’m

[12:57] speaking very often in a catholic schools or Anglo-Saxon or uh uh (_ school) and   what do I say to them ? and I have decided that I have to tell the truth and I tell them that this is a difficult question for me to answer   uh that I am not a religious person  

[13:21] that after my experiences I started having enormous doubts and I started question   and if they refer to God and I say »they« I’m speaking of the children to somebody sitting up there in judgement with a white long br- beard and I say I don’t believe

[13:42] in this kind of God   I’m not an atheist   perhaps there is something I ha- I again that all this question without answers questions question questions but how do you answer them   I believe that there is maybe something there some cosmic consciousness I

[14:07] would call it   but a God in the terms that they understand I don’t know about so that’s first question and the second question is »do you hate Germans ?« and it’s amazing that no matter how many schools I go to those two questions always come up

[14:31] mhm

[14:33] the second question is much easier to answer   I don’t believe in hate I don’t believe that hatred   can achieve anything it is a very destructive emotion   and   the hatred creates hatred   I don’t want to sound like somebody who is terribly goody-goody

[15:04] because I have my likes and dislikes like anything else but I also don’t believe in a collective guilt and this is something very very strong for me (like) uh all the Jews are I don’t know dirty and all the Poles are drinkers or alcoholics and all the

[15:26] Germans I don’t know what they are I mean I   this is very offensive to me to classify people all everyone is the same I definitely don’t believe in collective guilt   I don’t hate Germans   I try not to hate at all   uh  

[15:50] I do feel that people who commit

[15:54] these horrible crimes are responsible and have to be responsible what has happened   and I was uh   a witness for the prosecution when the man who gave order the Gestapo man who gave an order to kill my brother and my father   was caught   and accused of the crimes

[16:24] which he committed   and I was there   and I looked at that man so many years after the thing has happened   and yes I wanted him to be responsible I wanted him to be punished   and yet he looks so totally different from the man that I remembered in his   military

[16:57] outfit a Gestapo man with boots and clean German uh whatever you call it [laughs]   and the question is did I really hate him ? yeah I hated him I hated I hated that man but I could identify that particular man I know that he was responsible for the death of

[17:23] my beloved brother and my father   and then something extraordinary happened when I was in Germany at the time of the trial I can’t remember the date [to the side] is the date important ? I don’t know how important it is I was very sick after the trial I

[17:46] had (an) terrible pains in my stomach and a young a woman approached me [drinks]   I said and she started speaking to me and I thought that uh she was actually a journalist   and my first   instinct was »I don’t speak to her« and I said » (look) I don’t

[18:21] speak to journalists« and she says »no no no that’s not (that) I can see that you are in pain may I help you I’d like to take you to a chemist or to a pharmacist«   and I said »yes I am in pain that’s true« and I (did) go with her to the pharmacist  

[18:38] and I got something for my stomach and then she asked me »would you what are you doing now ?« and »what are you going to do now ?« and I said »well I (don’t know) probably go back to my hotel« and she said »why don’t you come home with me   and if

[18:56] you don’t want to talk I don’t want to ask any questions of you you don’t have to talk but it wouldn’t be (not) good for you to go to the hotel by yourself after this horrible trial please come home I just want to offer you a cup of tea that’s it«

[19:11] and there was something in her approach and there was something in her face that I trusted her even though it was a total stranger and at that time my reaction to many German people was not the most positive but I did trust her and I went with her home   and

[19:30] her name was Renate   I don’t know if you can see it [lifts her hand] but I am wearing her ring [smiles]   Renate and I developed into something which was more than friendship she became my sister and in my book I write about it and I say that Renate   was

[19:56] my bridge her bridge and my bridge   to my relationship with Germany   and with German people   the interesting things about Renate was that her father   was a member of of the party of the Gestapo and that he was caught and charged with various crimes and sentenced

[20:26] to a life sentence and Renate when it first happened could not believe it that her beloved father her wonderful father could commit all this crimes of which he was accused of and this is why she started coming to the to that particular case where my the Hildebrand

[20:51] was the man who gave orders to kill my brother and my father was and then she discovered the hor- the horrible truth of what was happening   and I was there looking at Renate and asking myself »is Renate responsible for her father did ?   for what he did and

[21:18] he still remained to her to her her beloved father«   no matter where I talk about it I come back to the same question there are always questions which are so terribly difficult to answer I tried to imagine myself being in that situation if [stressed:] my

[21:43] father had committed all those crimes   what would be my reaction to it I (did) not know about it   which brings me to   something else that I’m talking here I’m also reflecting on my own past   I won’t go into all the details because as Daniel said before

[22:17] we don’t want to speak about something that I have spoken a number of times   but by comparison thinking about Renate   my life was partly saved by a man   who had a son and this his son his bo- was my boyfriend   that man was the head   of the Jewish police

[22:55] in a camp where I (w-) was   and by special circumstances he saved my life   I loved the man and I only knew him as a wonderful man who adored me and who loved me and then afterwards after the war   I found out that he was accused of finding Jewish people in

[23:32] hiding and bringing them forward   I think that the part that the Jewish police played during the war is quite questionable many people were accused of behaving very brutally I don’t know where the truth is there I really did not look for it but I loved the

[24:02] man I I still love the man so while there is no similarity I mean he did not kill anybody he did not murder anybody he was not a Nazi but yes there were accusations against him   have I stopped loving him ? I loved the man he was such a decent man he was the

[24:23] father of my boyfriend and that ques- question came when I was speaking with Renate and it is still very strongly in my mind   Renate tried everything possible to make up for what her father did and I told Renate many times »you are not responsible for what

[24:46] your father did what you are responsible for is what you are doing now with your life and how you are helping and trying to help others«   so that part of my life was very important to me   and it helped me in a way too   to reconcile myself   with Germany I

[25:16] suppose  

[25:18] and [sighs] that’s the story why I am here in Germany [laughs] and why I’m so glad that’s not the story but that is something which led to it and and the fact that my book is coming out in German and that many I hope many German will read it

[25:40] it’s very important to me and now I don’t know maybe Basia wants to ask me some questions [laughs] do you ?

[25:49] well we uh I guess we both have many questions uhm maybe we could still uh talk about how Berlin became important to you and how you became very important to Berlin and to the memorial that we’re at now uh could you maybe say a little bit about 2005 and

[26:08] how this uh

[26:11] to what ? sorry speak up

[26:13] about 2005

[26:15] yes

[26:18] how this was important to you

[26:20] well 2005 was was [laughs] I think a catalyst in a way for whatever happened I I don’t know whether I should talk about how it happened from the beginning when I was approached when I received the letter one day I in Australia in Sydney I received a letter

[26:34] addressed to Sabina Haberman and uh and in itself it was a shock because I haven’t used the name Haberman which is my maiden name since uh 1942 or 43 when all my papers I had Aryan papers as a non-Jew and they were made in my real name Sabina Kulawicz which

[27:01] was my mothers maiden name but it was a Polish sounding name so uhm it was safer particularly that I lived part of my life as a non-Jew as an Aryan so being addressed Sabina Haberman I I I could not understand who was writing to me from Berlin on the top of

[27:23] it anyhow uhm the letter was from Doktor Ulrich Baumann who is a historian and the memorial then the memorial was not built yet but something which was to become a Memorial to the murdered Jews of Europe uh explaining wh- what’s happening in Berlin

[27:48] had you heard about the memorial before ?

[27:50] pardon ?

[27:53] had you heard about the memorial before this letter ?

[27:55] [simultaneously:] no I haven’t heard I haven’t heard a word about it I mean I didn’t know what the memorial was going to be and I didn’t know who was writing to Berlin but uh Uli now he’s Uli he is not Doktor Ulrich Baumann to me anymore [laughs]

[28:07] he has explained it very carefully and he also explained how did he come to obtain my name as a part of the uh narrative which was needed for the families that survived uh Uli went to Washington uh a Jewish Museum uh for res- researching   deposits which were

[28:35] made uh for Spielberg   and he came across I was I was interviewed mh uh for Spielberg’s uh I think about two years before probably I can’t remember exactly the date I’m not very good with dates and he came across that my story and also I have given a

[29:00] number of photographs to the Washington Museum which was very lucky that that I had I have no idea how these survived because I carried everything in a rucksack on my back during the war and it it was a death sentence in itself if anybody would stop me and

[29:21] examine the rucksack and find the photographs of my parents and grandparents Jewish people all my Aryan identity would have been blown immediately anyhow he found these documents there and obviously something which attracted him to it and as a result of that

[29:41] he asked to obtain my name and address from the Washington Museum and wrote to me asking if if I would be prepared to cooperate and to help and uh   perhaps one of perhaps my story my family’s story would be one of the family stories uh in the memorial in

[30:05] the Information Centre uh I think I had mentioned this somewhere that I stopped crying and I I started crying and I haven’t stopped crying for two days I was so [sighs] moved by the idea that that there will be some memory of of my family that naturally

[30:25] I then wrote to him and I was saying that I will do anything possible to cooperate and to help in any way I can so that was the first step of Berlin I have never been to Berlin before and uh we decided Kjeld my husband and I decided that we will go to Berlin

[30:48] and we will meet Doktor Ulrich Baumann and [smiles] that I will do everything possible and that was in the year 2004 so that was my first visit to Berlin  

[31:03] and that was the beginning of the incredible story which led to 2005   uh after it was decided that the

[31:14] material which uhm we prepared and the photographs which we had and the narrative which came from that was suitable for   one of the family’s the Polish family represented in the Information Centre   and then uh I was asked   I don’t remember by whom whether

[31:40] it was Uli or somebody was it I would be prepared to be one of the Holocaust survivors speakers at the uhm   opening of the Memorial to the murdered Jews of Europe   I thought about it I said »well I’m not a speaker [laughs] but if there will be some other

[32:05] people« and I didn’t know what was expected of me I said »well I’ll say a few words I’ll say something« and uh [drinks]   here we go with dates again I don’t remember exactly I think it was probably in January I should ask Kjeld [looks to the

[32:29] left] was it January ?

[32:31] what was January ?

[32:33] when it was when I was asked whether I’ll be the only speaker

[32:35] yes something like that

[32:37] yes

[32:39] towards the end of January

[32:41] in January

[32:43] at the beginning of 2005

[32:46] and five yes I received a letter from uh   Doktor Wolfgang Wolfgang ? Thierse the president of the Bundestag at that time uh asking whether I would agree to be the only speaker the only Holocaust survivor speaker [laughs] well I mean the beginning I was surprised

[33:04] as I said (look)   I I can’t imagine that I will be able to do that I   but again I I’m a thinking person occasionally so I thought a lot about that and I thought it was such an incredible   honour bestowed of me and how on earth could I say no so I agreed

[33:33] to do it once I agreed to do it then I really started worrying about it [laughs] and uh inauguration of the memorial was uh fifth of May ? tenth of May I don’t remember (__)

[33:48] tenth

[33:50] tenth of May   so I had quite a lot of time to think about it but a lot of things have happened I was   ill I had to go to the hospital I had a blood transfusion which is a different story and I finished on writing my speech I think two days before [laughs]

[34:07] maybe in a way it’s a better thing because the adrenalin is working and I agreed to do the speech I had to do it   so that what happens in 2005 [smiles]   and (as I)   I really I still even today five years later it is indescribable for me really I don’t

[34:34] now how I did it and it was the beginning of a journey which one could not imagine   on every possible level   it was frightening in the beginning this is a bit like my book   but it was also very cathartic   some (really) wonderful things have happened  

[35:02] and

[35:07] facing and being here in Germany and facing people all the time you know this this questions of of hatred always comes up because   it’s very understandable how quite a large number of Holocaust survivors still feel about Germany and there were many people

[35:33] that were quite angry with me   uh saying (as) »now you are the one who who forgave them« I say first of all I’m what question of forgiveness who am I to forgive them whoever »they« are it’s not (__) up to me I’m not a religious person I am not a

[35:57] judge I’m not God I can only answer for myself I can not answer for everybody else I think the question the people have to deal with themself and at the beginning of my talk here I spoke about hatred I don’t believe in hatred   as to forgiveness   [shakes

[36:17] head] I said it before I don’t look at whole Germany and all the Germans not only Germans I mean what about the Lithuanian what about the Latvians I mean what about Poles what about the Ukrainians what about (_) when we start to generalise like this well

[36:38] it’s not up to me to forgive everybody I can only deal the individuals and not with a generalisation of all people who committed all the crimes and I had to to make a choice and this is my choice I don’t hate and as to forgiveness   I did not forgive the

[37:06] ones who I know committed the crimes but I do not blame everybody else for it it makes my life easier for me and I   do not judge anybody else who thinks differently who feels differently I under- I understand the people who people who are annoyed with me or

[37:31] say to me for instance about Poland »you still speak Polish you still talk about Poland« I said »well I was born there I am not saying that all the Poles are anti-Semites there is quite a large population that feels very anti-Semitic but it’s still a

[37:53] little bit like Germany not all Poles are anti-Semite not all Germans are Nazis I look at people as individuals I think that a question of respect for everybody is most important   question of trying to understand everybody is most important and when I spoke

[38:17] before about this young children in school that we can only learn by example   I think that that’s what I’m trying to do I like to live my life as a relatively decent human being and teaching   by example where is the hatred going to bring all of us   and

[38:41] that also refers to the question that Basia asked about my relationship with Berlin and the relationship with Germans so   this is where I’m at [laughs] if it answers the question   and again to finish by the book by coming back to Berlin after this (__) since

[39:06] 2005 and uh when I was asked by Harper Collins to write the book uh I came back to Berlin 2006 so this is I think my either [to her husband] fifth visit Kjeld ? is that the fifth time ?

[39:23] this is the fifth

[39:26] it’s the fifth it’s the fifth time that I am in Berlin and I feel very comfortable in here   and I have so many wonderful friendships in here and I myself I honestly can’t believe that it all happened to me   and I feel good in Berlin so that’s that’s

[39:47] that’s as far as I go   and people that I have encountered and that I work with here and the young people who I met in Berlin   they still somehow I don’t know why feel responsible for the past and the work that they are doing and the commitment to the cause

[40:14] is absolutely amazing that’s that’s that’s the way I feel about it   and now the book which is again another story I don’t know where this is going to lead us (this is) the beginning of something else [laughs] we will see

[40:31] this might lead to another visit

[40:34] pardon ?

[40:36] this might lead to another visit

[40:38] well you never know [laughs]

[40:40] you never know what it is but it is something really extraordinary in my life   and my life has been an interesting life I suppose that it always comes to the same thing [drinks]   sorry I have to blow my nose [blows her nose]   the

[41:09] question of survival   survival   it is not just a physical survival   I remember when the when we knew that the war ended   and   you can’t go from one extreme from being so desperate during the war   from the suffering which one has experienced from the degradation

[41:42] that you went through to suddenly be elated because the war ended particularly in situations that we were that I was I was totally alone   the readjustment   from the past to support to the new life what was the new life how does one start again to live  

[42:13] how much did (you) learn how much did I learn what hope was there for me for the future   that was   i- it didn’t look pink and rosy like people think »well now I’m alive and everything I’m alive and everything is going to happen to me«   it was very

[42:41] very difficult   being totally alone destitute   in my case in was even more complicated because I was under the age I was living with a family   which uh we were living at the east of Poland which became Ukraine eventually and being Polish citizen we had a choice

[43:17] we could either remain in that time was Soviet Union or Ukraine Soviet Union or we were allowed to emigrate or that we were moved by transports again to the part which in Polish is Śląsk in German it was Silesia ? (you know) and uh from the town that I come

[43:45] from which was called Borysław in east of Poland close to another place which was better known Lwόw   to a place in Dolny Śląsk which in German was Waldenburg and in Polish was called Wałbrzych   how do we started life again and what I mentioned before

[44:13] the family that I lived with had to leave we had no choice by which transport we were leaving if the transport came and one’s name was on the list one had to go at the time when the my in inverted commas family or family that I considered family had to leave

[44:37] I was not in Borysław I was away from Borysław and they had to leave without me   I did not have my own documents at that time I was on the list together with them because I as I mentioned before I was under the age so I was still on their papers on which

[44:58] they were or which together with them and they left without me my name still being on the same papers when I came back to Borysław they were they are not there were not there anymore when the transport where they were travelling came to the uh   frontier uh

[45:23] or what is the granica

[45:25] border

[45:27] to the border   my name was on it and they were naturally asked »well where is Sabina Kulawicz« and they said »unfortunately she was left behind because she she was not there at the time that we had to leave by transport«   so there was enormous problem

[45:47] because they questioned them they did not first believe them they thought maybe they killed me or something happened anyhow at the end they just crossed my name out so my f- uh people who were taking care of me left and arrived in Poland I was left in in Russia

[46:06] in the Soviet Union when I came back from uh the place I travelled to to my town my family was there uh not there anymore and I was left without any documents so there was another complication to my survival [laughs] I did not exist I (had) no document to

[46:28] prove who I was [smiles]   uh

[46:33] so you came back to Borysław and nobody was in the house anymore (__)

[46:36] there was nobody yes I I think I write about (it) in my book (__isn’t it) there was nobody in there because the the different family has been moved to the uh place where my former family lived

[46:49] so a different family lived in that house ?

[46:52] yes ! as I said a small flat an apartment or something like that I was absolutely surprised I think well what’s happening ? what do I do now ?

[47:01] what did you say to them ?

[47:04] well [laughs] what did I say to them (I said) »what do I do now ?« but they couldn’t tell me what to do now fortunately I had a friend there another girl who survived and she said »you can come and stay with me« but of course that didn’t solve any any

[47:20] problems for me because I did not exist I did not have a document to show that my name was whoever I claimed to be and uh I don’t know what is uh I have to ask Basia because she’s a very clever girl there is a Russian uh expression for people like me (for)

[47:42] specifically young people bezprizorniye did you come across that ? that’s a Russian word what would be equivalent ?

[47:50] uh people without guardianship I think

[47:53] without

[47:55] that’s uh without guardians or guardianship I think that can be (__)

[47:57] it was it was I think it related mainly to young people to children it’s somebody who d- who had nobody to care for them and

[48:06] but it’s not like orphans it’s uhm

[48:08] it is they were they could have been orphans they could have been abandoned with the parents and so on but they had nobody who was caring for them so again inverted commas so they would be gathered together and then put into orphanages and taken to Russia

[48:26] so I was one of the bezprizorniye and the reason I was even though I was older at the time I think that was in 1946 so I was closing after 18 I was (__) nearly 19 and I had no papers and no documents so I obviously in my naiveté had not learned anything after

[48:49] my experience during the war with with the Nazis how on earth did I still trust any police [laughs] I don’t know but I went to the police which was NKVD and NKVD I don’t know how it translates NKVD is is uh what was it what (__) Kjeld will know what’s

[49:13] NKVD ?

[49:16] (__) was uh (it wasn’t) the secret police because it was equivalent of the secret police I guess

[49:20] mh

[49:22] yes

[49:24] (__)

[49:27] (and) what is called the (GP) there was a different name for it in NKVD was the Russian name

[49:31] mhm

[49:34] it was a secret police so I went to the quarters   telling them that I am so and so and that I haven’t got any papers and would they give me some papers uh very clever [smiles] well they were very happy to see me put me into a room   a chair in the centre  

[49:49] big lights from four corners [shows]   onto me and asking questions   in Russian »a vy kto kakoye ?« meaning »who are you ?« so I said »well my name is so and so and so and so« and the »a dokumenty u vas yest ?« [laughs] »papers ? do you have ?« I said

[50:16] »no I haven’t got the papers this is why I’m here ! I came to tell you that I haven’t got the papers because of so and so happened and I hoped that you can provide the papers !«   very naïve and uh I don’t know how long this interrogation was going

[50:32] on for because uh (that is) another subject of memory or memory that fails us very often and then you don’t know exactly what happens to the memory   so I s- was questioned there for quite a long time whether it was half an hour or 50 minutes or an hour I

[50:53] honestly don’t remember and then suddenly somebody walked into the room and the lights were switched off and uh it happened to be a high ranking officer in NKVD who sent everybody out and called me to come to his desk and he said »well tell me what your

[51:17] story is« and I told him that I am Jewish that I am the only one who was left that everybody of my family was murdered and that there was a very nice family who took me in but unfortunately when they were transported to to Poland I was left behind and I have

[51:37] no documents and I told him my long (sob) story and he looked at me and he said »silly little girl   you don’t go to police with matters like this« and it so happened he was Jewish   and of course he understood what was all about he said »I cannot provide

[52:01] you with papers I can let you out from here but don’t you [stresses:] ever show your face here again« [laughs] well I was extremely lucky that he let me that he happened to be Jewish and understood what was about   and uh I was went back to my friend my

[52:22] girlfriend   and it was a long difficult story of survivals and hunger and   what happened eventually I was provided with the false papers yet again and paid somebody on my behalf paid   uh   to someone who could provide those false papers but in my name on my

[52:54] own name when I say false they were false of this (much) that they were fabricated I mean they were not original documents   and I arrived in Poland in Wałbrzych in Waldenburg   and that’s a long long story again [laughs]

[53:13] uh maybe before we get to uh the new part of Poland uh could you tell us a little bit about what uhm Borysław was like after the so called liberation you said people were not elated because of everything they had been through so it wasn’t like everybody

[53:31] was just celebrating

[53:35] [simultaneously:] they were not elated

[53:37] in the streets but uh what was it like when the Soviets marched into into Borysław and in 1944

[53:40] when the Russian came ?

[53:42] yes what was what was the atmosphere like ? what what what was life like in in Borysław in 1944 ?

[53:46] well this is what I started speaking about (that one) that some people would expect elation it was it was terrible first of all 1944 when we were liberated and we were lucky to be liberated earlier than the (wars) the war finished because the war finished

[54:02] in 1945 uh it was it was a total desolation I (could) see the people coming out some of them from hiding people who were for long time in hiding with this fallen bodies from hunger from pale from lack of   sunshine and in fresh air and   just looking f- for

[54:30] survivors thinking who survived maybe somebody else from the family survived maybe they’ll find somebody in the street some people were   better than the others not everyone was so terribly desolate some had hopes   and I personally knew that nobody survived

[54:52] from my family so I had nothing to look forward to   it took a while I think that (we) speak of liberation it is such an incredible name being liberated   there are different kinds of liberation one has been liberated physically which was marvellous absolutely

[55:18] wonderful   but uh essentially i- i- you can not liberate yourself from what you have lived through from your memories so uh there was   incredible relief and gratefulness to the Russians which brings you to another subject how the meaning of the world changes

[55:47] when they first came that was in 1939 till 1941 were the oppressors you know they they were the occupiers the same Russians or the Soviet army which came in 1944 they were the liberators and (a) total different meanings that you look at people totally differently

[56:11] again so so we were grateful we were we were kissing them embracing them very happy about that but for the few survivors who were there i- it was uh   there was no enormous joy there was incredible relief and a disbelief that one survived now I have to stop

[56:36] for a moment [smiles; low:] I have to go to [cut]

[56:39] uhm we just talked about Borysław in

[56:43] yes

[56:45] 1944 and I was wondering if you remember uhm   what the streets were looking like what the weather was like uhm when you were liberated in comparison to let’s say 1941 how did uh the town change during these three years I mean physically if you can say so

[57:05] yes   the to- the town was neglected very neglected it was i- it (interesting) story about the town because in a way in some ways it was very important (both to) Germany and to Soviet Union because we had oil so fortunately our town was not bombed because if

[57:34] they would have bombed Borysław then all the oil would have exploded and it would the whole town would have been bombed uh would have been uhm burnt but nobody really cared about the town as such uhm   the what what was important was the industry in the town

[57:58] which was the oil industry (that) trying to draw as much oil as possible when I say oil it’s uh I don’t know it called it was a black it was I think it’s called naphtha ?

[58:09] mhm

[58:12] it was a black material which was drawn from there and then it had to go to the refinery and had to be produced and so on so it was not oil that we associate in our thought today it was oil what it was uh and   there were very few people (the) really working

[58:30] people because the Jewish people who were workers and so on most of them were killed already by that time by 1944 there was only I don’t know exactly the number of the survivors uhm i- it’s it cannot be really verified because   in 1945 there arrived people

[58:57] from Soviet Union but from what I remember I think there were only a few hundred people that emerged from the forest and from the bunkers and from the hiding so I don’t know exact number whatever 400 or 500 but that’s from a   the total number of I think

[59:18] 18000 Jewish people that were in Borysław there were maybe a few hundred people that emerged from the   from the hiding uh there were a few more survivors because few more survivors came from the camps later   so really nobody cared about the city as such there

[59:40] was no pride in the town anymore I mean there was occupation at first it was Soviet Union occupation then there was Nazi occupation the town was not important to anybody anymore   it was uh dirty Kjeld and I and uh my co-writer of the book Diana went back to

[1:00:04] Borysław [to the side] what year ? sixty- ?

[1:00:08] that was in 2006

[1:00:10] 2006

[1:00:12] yes

[1:00:14] so that was sixty years sixty years after the liberation 1946 was you know sixty years well I think that town has gone back a hundred years it’s it’s sad it’s very sad to see it and I think that reason for it is that   there is no no pride there’s (no)

[1:00:42] no no happiness about »this is our town !« you know that the people really want to do something like they say in Berlin they say Berlin ! »I’m a Berliner« you know that’s wonderful (they are) really proud of that there’s nothing like it so   it is a

[1:01:00] sort of I don’t know how long may- maybe the new generation which has come now from uh mh from Russia feels differently but I can’t answer that how it is now when I was there in 1944 it was I think i- it was a as sad as we felt about everything else that

[1:01:24] was around us it was not a very nice town   I was glad to leave it for many reasons and also the Polish population non-Jewish population that (from) the Jewish population hardly anybody survived but also the Poles who were there left as well because it became

[1:01:46] Ukraine   so it wasn’t very very nice

[1:01:52] uh in your book you write a lot about

[1:01:55] could you speak up a little bit

[1:01:57] in in your book you write a lot about this transition period between the time that Borysław was still Polish and then it became Ukrainian and there were Soviet soldiers in Borysław the whole time and you also write about how a kind of social life developed

[1:02:11] that you did go dancing you did go to the cinema uhm could you maybe say something about what generally the the mood was like and what the relations were like between all the different people who were in Borysław at the time were there tensions or uhm were

[1:02:25] there also friendships developing say between the Poles or the Russians who were there maybe a little bit about the uhm human relations that were uhm there in Borysław at the time during that transition period

[1:02:36] very difficult to say that when you say that I went dancing and so on I was young   I wanted to forget   I have a very dear friend in Australia who is a writer uh who is a wonderful writer her name is Maria Tumarkin and she actually wrote a book called »Courage«

[1:02:55] and uh when the book was published in uh Sydney we were both on the same panel and this is how we met and we found a lot in common and became very good friends and uh Maria has written a new book now which is called »Otherland« she went back to Russia she

[1:03:15] emigrated from Russia (through _) and in her book she gives me as an example of uh the people who have   enormous joy of living and I told her and in my book I will speak a little uh it was only a few month ago six month or a year that since my brother died

[1:03:39] and my mother died and here I am I want to go dancing with the Russians   I was very young and I wanted to live and that was a normal reaction I suppose for somebody like I like a young girl who did not have a a real uh time of going out with the boys and playing

[1:04:03] and going dancing and and having things so that was my reaction to to that I don’t know how how uhm whether there was interaction between the Russian I don’t think so I really don’t think so uhm the Polish people I mean there was uh there were many horrors

[1:04:25] committed by the secret police NKVD before the Nazis came and I mean today we know about Katyń uh where the Polish intelligentsia and uh and uh Polish officers and several several thousand people Poles were killed and uh the Russian for many many years attributed

[1:04:54] to the to Nazis and to German so there was some kind of terror I was a too young child to experience this from 1939 to 1941 so there was no interaction between the Russians who came even though they were the same Russians in 1944 those   the Ukrainians uh were

[1:05:19] not friends of Soviet Union they were friends of of of Nazis of Germany they they we- they were promised that they will have a Ukraine by Germans at that time so I don’t think that there was any kind of social [gesticulates] life intermingling between but

[1:05:41] I can’t really honestly I can’t say much about it   I only know that there were some Russian soldiers that I went dancing with or even fell in love with [laughs] well (__) I’m very young I was very young at that time and uh [drinks] I went back to school  

[1:06:04] I had to work and to earn my living   so I was going I worked from I worked partly as a   kindergarten teacher in the orphanage in Polish it is uh Ochronka Świętej Barbary it the name was changed uhm to a Russian name which I cannot remember   and in the evening

[1:06:34] I went to school   and then whenever I could I could go dancing [laughs] so uhm I tried I was speaking being before how does one adjust to a new life I suppose that that was my way of adjusting to the new life   and you know today when this things happen in

[1:06:58] school or in everyday immediately there is sometimes who some- somebody who helps the young children (together) with the tragedy uhm there are psychologists uh there there   is help offered nobody offered us any help we had »well you are alive just get on

[1:07:18] with your living !«   some rebuilt it better than the others   some people live in the past up till today uh I’m the one who decided I’m alive I have to   it’s not a question of proving but I was always thinking of my parents of my brother my mother and

[1:07:47] that was like a guiding light for me what would they say in a many situations of course sometimes I interpreted the way it suited me this is quite normal but I still try to justify my survival and to really make the best of it  

[1:08:11] keep asking myself what have

[1:08:16] I learned from my experience   if one   doesn’t learn from experiences then it’s a terrible waste of life   there are things which   I don’t think have changed about me as even though I have grown much much older and I’m at the age I’m now I don’t

[1:08:42] think that I ever stopped needing an enormous amount of of love it was always very important to me uh I   I’m a very emotional person and   the loss of everyone   a most wonderful mother who was a great example and is a great example to me of a wonderful brother

[1:09:13] and my father   the loss of the family in the in a situation in which there is real caring and we were very demonstrative people   uh some people particularly I would suppose in Anglo-Saxon countries that I lived they withdraw they don’t show their emotion

[1:09:37] even so they do care I needed I’ve always needed and I still need it and uh in this sense uh I haven’t changed and I try to   show it in my daily life in my own family when I created my family which was to me having children   was very important and bringing

[1:10:04] up my children I didn’t have a role model I didn’t have somebody there telling »this is the way you do things« so it had to go by instinct but   I always remembered that what my mother has taught me you know   try to be honest and and caring she taught

[1:10:31] me many beautiful lessons which I remember very well I don’t want to sound like I’m such a wonderful (old) person but it’s it’s it’s there you know it is it is a very important part of my life   and there’s another thing which I suppose that I’m

[1:10:52] uh in a way well you can call it lucky or or blessed I genuinely like people which helped me in many situations because uh   after I   went back to school and finish school and married and and divorced and and married [laughs] again I had all the time to uh  

[1:11:19] survive by caring for myself earning my living and it helped me and and this genuine liking for people helped me in my relationship with people and establishing uhm different parts of my life business and so on   so   what do you call it do you call it luck ?

[1:11:45] or do you call it uh   destiny ? [laughs] I don’t know no matter what I’m talking about I always come back to my questions I’m very curious by nature and inquisitive (__) so and I do like understanding things you know what I’m doing so so I keep keep

[1:12:09] (questionings) to some of the questions I I don’t think there ever will be answers like the question »why did I survive ?« I don’t know why did I survive I I think it’s uh it was coincidence just I happened to be in the right place and the right time

[1:12:27] like sometimes you’re in in the wrong place and the wrong time for me uh it was lucky   and beside luck   uh I strongly believe that it could not have happened without the help of others   and this is where I come back again to this question of uh of of hating

[1:12:54] you know there are many   many people or many Jewish people who as I mentioned before keep hating Poles who did not help I personally was helped by wonderful Polish Christian families   so   how can you continue blaming everyone I keep coming back to that

[1:13:23] because that preoccupies me   and particularly living in the age that we are living now where there is so much   hatred still   and all this racism the question of colours the question of religion   there is there is anything I’d like to do that is to do something

[1:13:53] about it to try to help   as many young people as I can today to tell them how wrong that is another question that also preoccupies me since the war is a question of being passive of not doing anything at all of people which I call bystanders   and uh   it all

[1:14:24] [gesticulates] links together you know the courage and the bystanders and the passivity and the hatred and I keep [gesticulates] talking about it quite a lot because it is so very important to me because it’s in relationship what’s happening in today’s

[1:14:44] world whether this is Muslims or Jews or or Christians or whoever   so I don’t know   how do we how do we overcome these things I honestly don’t know this is like being so terribly critical critical of various governments that we have everyone knows how

[1:15:06] to criticise but where are the solutions how do you offer solutions to anything [laughs] how do you solve it   I don’t know (whether) in my book I dealt with all these things maybe it’s all too big a question [drinks] I wanted to deal with with that in

[1:15:28] my book but I think that the only thing that probably I hope hopefully comes from the book is   the question of reconciliation and the question of being so much against hatred and I hope that that message somehow if you can call it a message because I’m [gesticulates]

[1:15:56] message yeah but the question of my believes really what it is about I hope that it will come in the book and uhm I’m so excited about it   will be very interesting to see how the book is received in Germany [laughing] so I don’t know whether it answers

[1:16:16] some of your questions or not about the book with that really which we started about an hour ago [laughs]

[1:16:21] a long way to come to but I don’t know uh Basiu is there anything else that you would like to ask me about

[1:16:28] uh well we were uhm just in Borysław now before you moved to Poland so maybe you could say a little bit about how uhm your journey to uh Lower Silesia came about

[1:16:40] to what ?

[1:16:44] to Lower Silesia to Dolny Śląsk how you uh came to Wałbrzych what your journey was like what getting that organised was like since you missed so to speak your first transport how did it happen that you did go to Wałbrzych

[1:16:54] well as I mentioned before when I got my papers (oh I have to) mention my priva- my private life [laughs] uhm well I I got married very young not not very happily but whatever happened and I came to Wałbrzych and of course when I arrived in Wałbrzych

[1:17:15] how did you arrive did you go straight to Wałbrzych or can you say what you do you remember what your journey was like ?

[1:17:21] uh well it was uh it was n- not a very sort of luxurious journey we travelled it was not cattle uh things wagons as we had but uh it was a we were transported actually we were not uh we we did not have a choice they said »all right you leave in there and

[1:17:42] now you go to Waldenburg you go« we could have gone to Breslau to Wrocław perhaps but we were moved from one area of ours to Dolny Śląsk because that was the area that the German people had it was decided in in Yalta you know that that uh at the conference

[1:18:00] in Yalta which I suppose people will know what it is that that part will become part of Poland and the German people who lived there had to leave and to to go into Germany so we were moved from one area to the other I suppose we could have gone to to Breslau

[1:18:16] or some other areas but we arrived in Wałbrzych once I arrived in Wałbrzych I wanted to go back to school I always wanted to study   so again I was going part-time to school and other than this I was   a wife not a very good one but I was a wife [laughs] whatever

[1:18:40] happened and then uh my marriage fell apart and uhm again call it luck I had very close friends of mine who lived in Kłodzko it’s another place and uh   they they were good enough to offer their home to me so I went to Kłodzko and lived there with (a) dear

[1:19:09] family whose two daughters twins were my closest friends   and again questions and decisions yes what I want to do I want to work because I have to work and I want to study and that that the yearning for for uh studying and learning uh was very strong it still

[1:19:38] is in me even in my age and uh I worked during the day and in the evening I went to school repetitious [laughs] but very important   I still went dancing I like dancing [laughs] and uh I met somebody else there for a while (_) as I said I was young   and   the

[1:20:06] important thing which I omitted to say which I’ve forgotten before is that I knew that my mother had brothers in the United States   and there was uh I think a quarterly magazine which was coming out established by Red Cross and a number of families people

[1:20:29] were looking for each other of course after the war researching and in one of these magazines I found out that the my mothers family my was looking for survivors and I remember when I received that knowledge that letter or notification that my uncles are looking

[1:20:49] for any survivors   and unfortunately I unfortunately for me but unfortunately for them I was the only one from a very large extended family who survived and the my joy in finding a family relative was enormous so they started writing to me and they said they

[1:21:12] will do everything possible to bring me to the United States   but whilst I waited for the papers and it was difficult to obtain a passport I s- I worked and I studied and   (in) new different surroundings because Kłodzko was quite different from neglected

[1:21:40] Borysław it was a beautiful lovely place for us green with a swimming pool a luxury for for somebody coming from a provincial little town like Borysław and in it was a a time of recovery for me mentally physically learning to trust people again learning

[1:22:07] to love again and uh this wonderful parents of my friends who offered their home to me and treated me like one of their own children it was it was very healing   and it was a good time for me

[1:22:27] this was the Fleischer family ?

[1:22:30] yes that was the Fleischer family yes and the girls was Le- Lu- Luka i Nina my girlfriends   uh   an important thing that was happened that Nina decided to convert   and I still remember a letter which she wrote to me which says »don’t condemn me« I said

[1:22:51] »condemn me I mean I don’t condemn anybody for anything« I didn’t understand why she decided to convert to Christianity   but that was her choice so I said »look it’s not a question of I don’t understand it but that’s about all I’m not I don’t

[1:23:09] sit in judgement on anybody in here« she obviously had a need for it   maybe she was a believer [laughs] I don’t know   unfortunately she died of cancer fairly young she became a very well-known uhm producer of the films she went to act- to school in Łódź  

[1:23:34] [sighs] so then was afterwards I went back to Wałbrzych   do I have to talk about it and I got married [laughs] yes and there was a long story there afterwards I was Paris afterwards my wonderful city but all this what’s important of that was what I was

[1:24:02] speaking about before how does one really   recover how do you come from this   terrible place where there is no hope   start to (__)   how does it really work ? I   I think that and another question comes there that most of the people most of the survivors

[1:24:34] did not speak about what happened to them [drinks] neither did I   I think that we thought that by   you could not erase it from the memory but you can sort of put it a somewhere back in your own mind try not to think about it because if one continues dwelling

[1:25:03] on the past then you cannot move forward and it was very important to move forward to re-establish yourself I mean to start being you know human being this is what Nazis were trying to eradicate on us we were worse than everything else   I personally never

[1:25:25] believed what we were goi- being told   this this   kind of a pride of who you are and to remember it’s the question of choices I think   I choose to live   and if you make this   choice consciously then you also try to do things about going forward   and whatever

[1:26:02] it involves and part of this was trying to thinking not thinking about the past and I think I I really don’t know I can’t speak for everyone but people asked »why didn’t you talk about your past« and I think that it goes for the most of survivors you

[1:26:17] wanted to move on you wanted to keep on and another thing was that that nobody was going to believe us you know   I could hardly believe what I went through and it was only uh by comparison of this many other people survived I was not in Auschwitz I was not

[1:26:36] in all these horrible camps I was I was in a camp for sh- time but it was no comparison to what other people went through   so people didn’t want to think about their past and they didn’t want to tell people because people looked at them and said »it’s

[1:26:55] not possible« so we went on with our lives and trying to rebuild our lives

[1:27:00] do you think it was necessary for a while to forget in order now to be able to talk about it to   to gain some strength during that time

[1:27:12] [simultaneously:] I think it as (__) yeah I think it was a necessity of the time but at the same time you cannot look we had to rebuild a life then you had your families then your children then your businesses your it you became [gesticulates] engar- engaged

[1:27:27] in day to day lives you know

[1:27:31] and very often   don’t even know how often but there are sad examples of people who stayed really in their past and unfortunately the next generation the children of the survivors suffered because of that because there were so

[1:27:50] many people who says »what do you know what I went through« (__) how can you bring up your child while saying these things they were not responsible I mean for whatever happens to their parents and no more that the generation of of of young Germans or young

[1:28:06] Poles are responsible for what their parents did you know so they couldn’t understand but they suffered because of this they are many and we know that there is this kind of syndrome of children of the Holocaust survivors who really had their life very badly

[1:28:19] I wouldn’t say ruined but uh marked by what their parents went through I consciously that was a conscious decision not to talk to my children about it it was not after of many many years that they start [stressed:] they started asking questions questions

[1:28:37] like »why don’t we have any grandparents ? why don’t we have uncles ? why don’t we have any family why why is only you ?« and that you know   that I started slowly telling them about it until they were   quite older teenager maybe yes about teenagers then

[1:28:58] they started really wanting to know and also I started speaking about it not only to them but when I was asked the first time uhm to go to to a school and and and to tell the stories I first of all I was very negative in that (I s-) I said »I don’t want

[1:29:18] to talk about it« but then I realised how important it is to do it which I started before when I was speaking about speaking to school children you know so I said »yes« and I think that uh that kind of uh symptoms if you want to call it I wasn’t the only

[1:29:33] one that applied to many Holocaust survivors some of them damaged their children and so on by talking too much and then the the others who didn’t talk at all but [shakes her head]   you can’t forget about what’s happened I think you can [gesticulates]

[1:29:50] put it in your mind back but eventually it all comes and I thinks that’s now as the generations like my generations are coming to the end of their lives I think we most of us feel the importance that to pass on what has happened how important it is I’m

[1:30:08] afraid I can’t say that it will never happen again I mean not in that sense but watching what has happened in other countries uh I was speaking about Rwanda and all the other things these things are still happening but perhaps perhaps we’ll learn a little

[1:30:26] bit from this experience it will not be happening again   I don’t know so that’s that’s that wasn’t only about Kłodzko but it was partly about Kłodzko [laughs] anything else Basia you would like to know

[1:30:47] uh

[1:30:54] yeah I’ve got I’ve got one more question concerning your children I think you write it in your book or you mentioned it yesterday I don’t know uhm that you made the decision in the 1990s or so to uhm visit together with your children Borysław

[1:31:01] we oh that was uh yes that was

[1:31:05] they they wanted to know about you past

[1:31:08] no actually it was not that that I have made the decision what happened uh there was in Jerusalem that was the first one uhm uhm children of the Holocaust survivors uh meeting uh I think that they are now quite often they they also there was one in the United

[1:31:28] States that I went to that was one of the first meeting that I attended to and I was uh   asked by another of my friend who lives in in in Israel who the name is familiar to you [points at Daniel Baranowski] Heilig a survivor as well to whether I would be interested

[1:31:51] to go there and then no he asked about Borysław sorry I get confused (here) I was (asking by somebody else) to come to this meeting in Jerusalem of the chi- Holocaust survivors so I said »yes I will come« and at the same time I received a letter from Heiligs

[1:32:06] saying that they were going to Borysław would I like to join them as well ? and I said »yes« uh I was uh afraid of going back to Borysław that was the first time I went there I was there only twice and I talked to my children about it and they said »we

[1:32:27] are not going to let you go by yourself we are coming with you we want to know where you are where you come from we want to know what Borysław is about and we also want to be there to support you because you will need somebody« so I can’t remember the

[1:32:43] [to the side:] what do you

[1:32:45] that that was 1993

[1:32:47] 1993   so this was the first time that I went back to Borysław with my children and that was also a terrible experience   and there as well as I it was very important to me to go that was the first time after the war [sighs]   a very bad experience I have to

[1:33:10] interrupt sorry I must go to the toilet again [cut]

[1:33:13] so let’s talk about Australia   what did it mean to you to

[1:33:21] sorry

[1:33:23] go to Australia what does Australia mean to you now ?

[1:33:26] oh well (_) Australia I was

[1:33:28] when did the whole thing with Australia start ?

[1:33:30] well Australia I have mentioned before that I had hoped that I will be able to go to United States   uh because of my family because my uncles uh my relatives not the family but my relatives in United States so uh after my marriage in Waldenburg to Dennis Wolanski

[1:33:57] that’s were the name comes from   uh we went to Paris on a transit visa visa and uh we waited to go to the United States so from 1948 to 1950 I lived in Paris I adore Paris [smiles] and there it was another opportunity to learn and to study I learned French

[1:34:22] in there which uh definitely is better than my German and uh it became eventually uhm   quite well-known fact that the Poles whether they are Jews or the Poles or whatever but are not so welcome in the United States than other nationalities I don’t know why

[1:34:47] and that the quota there was a quota announced for how many people can come to United States Polish people it was very very long and that we would have to wait for very long time   in Paris which was uh being on a transit visa was not an easy thing because

[1:35:05] obtaining a permanent uh residence in Paris was very difficult as well and then we (an opportunity) came because we had some friends who emigrated to Australia before and they were writing to us and telling us how lovely the country is and there were only

[1:35:27] two   possibilities we could either to go Canada   or to go to Australia and Australia sounded very nice and warm with a beautiful sea and sunshine and and Canada was cold [smiles] and so we went to Australia   and   the promised land   Australia not not Jerusalem

[1:35:55] but Australia the b- beginnings in any new country are very difficult immigration is difficult totally in new surroundings uhm a new way of life a new language   uh uh uh very difficult but I was expecting a child my my first child Josephine my daughter was

[1:36:24] born there   and at the beginning I felt a little bit sorry for myself that we have uh emigrated from Paris   but in time   quite a long time [laughs] it wasn’t very fast it took many years to uh readjust again I realised that that really is a country with

[1:36:54] opportunities uh for uhm establishing a new life (_) were enormous uh it was uh when I came to Australia it was 1950 it was a very new country and people were very very friendly once one again I speak so much about understanding how the people learning to

[1:37:21] live with other people it was an Anglo-Saxon country which was some- something totally different to my way of thinking   but I tried to fit in   and uh I’m very happy to say that I succeeded  

[1:37:39] we started a business my then-husband Dennis Wolanski started working

[1:37:46] very hard to establish we started from the scratch we were penniless particularly (just) for everything establish a new way of life then as my second child was born Phillip and as I was saying before I concentrated   on on the establishing a peaceful and serene

[1:38:14] environment for my children and for the new life and for myself I’m not speaking only of children and tried not to think so much about the past until (certain) times that they started asking questions and we were successful in a sense economically we have

[1:38:33] established ourself we had a very good life and very good income   but other problems started brewing [laughs] in the personal relationship   and then came the divorce   and again establishing myself as a a single woman with two children   and (it) the things

[1:39:04] which I did not mention before   I have arrived in Australia fairly young I was uh 1948 I was 21 [drinks]   and it was in the long way an eye-opener for me because there was again a new beginning it was a development of me as a woman which the the process

[1:39:41] of growing up it was not a normal process it is not when you have a normal family and then you have a child too my childhood was very happy but then you have a teenage-hood which is which for me did not exist (and) your parents or somebody there to guide you

[1:39:55] well I missed all that and suddenly I was a woman with two children   and I look very fondly back on that the way I I grew up and developed and started and became very aware socially of uh the social groups around me and my contribution to the social social

[1:40:19] group as well and my development as I mentioned before as a woman   it was an important part of my life   once again I was lucky I keep calling it luck because I don’t know what other word to use for it   I kept coming across people who where giving to much

[1:40:45] of themself and by teaching me by showing me and it continues happening even now I still get exactly the same I keep meeting most extraordinary people and I met the most wonderful woman she was Czech her name was Teresa Terci Terci I called her   uh she had

[1:41:08] one son who is a professor in England and her husband was an accountant who became my accountant eventually and she was very cultured very well-educated woman and here again I had an example of what I wanted (what) I wanted to grow up and to be like   she had

[1:41:32] the most beautiful home   which   I adored being there and being with her she was a painter she was a reader   and she was also fighting for woman rights [smiles] so I found this this this wonderful person I mentioned before my I didn’t have my mother I only

[1:41:59] had my mother in my memory but then I found this woman who was nobody could be a substitute for my mother but if if one could Terci would have been that and she was guiding me and she continued telling me the same thing what my mother told me when I was a

[1:42:19] little girl and I didn’t mention it before but I was a very determined little girl [laughs] I mention it somewhere in my book and uh Basia understand it my mother called me »Zosia Samosia« instead of Binka or Sabina I always wanted to do things on my own

[1:42:36] »Mamusiu I’ll do it I’ll do it !« [laughs] and uh I still continue doing that   and and and and Terci Teresa was was very approving of me which was so important to me I needed approval   because for many years I was not sure of who I was and what I was

[1:43:01] and Terci told me what my mother should tell me »you can do it« not only »you [stressed:] can do it« but »you should do it« [laughs] which was very important too

[1:43:11] so she was older than you ?

[1:43:13] pardon ?

[1:43:16] she was older than you ?

[1:43:18] she was yes she was older woman older woman she was old she was as old as I’m now I suppose [laughs] no she was at that time probably in her sixties when I was about twenty or something you know she was her son was already lecturing in in London was a professor

[1:43:31] they they arrived in Austr- in Australia   before the war so I don’t know exactly what he is so that so that was another development of my life growing up as an adult already as a woman as I said development as a woman and being a single mother which was

[1:43:51] very important what to do and and uh as I said I became a very socially I joined a   not not a p- not a party political parties but some of the organisations to help to work with other people   and it was a difficult time because uh as I said I was a s- a woman

[1:44:20] of growing having two children that I was growing up who were growing up but an important part of my life was learning again something new also learning new skills   [coughs]

[1:44:38] and then I decided after my divorce that I I have to start a business   so I started

[1:44:48] a business which was uh   i- interior decorating I did a course in interior design   I did not it was a short course a few months only but I thought that was in th- enough (for me) actually it is not a design it was a interior decorating which was quite a different

[1:45:12] of interior design which you cou- we have to go through a few years studying and so on uh and uh the business was successful and then I started importing uh things from Japan representing Japanese (companies) in Australia   and that was a very interesting part

[1:45:38] of my life [smiles] and I always liked to travel I like travelling enormously which is a a continuation of what I keep talking experiencing new things and learning and studying and meeting people   and I think as I have I keep repeating myself that it always

[1:46:03] helped me because I like geniunely people and I think it has been reciprocated I think it is a kind of thing that becomes known that you generally care that you like them so I developed very good relationship with uhm people that I worked for or represented

[1:46:20] from Japan and there were some people from Scandinavia and there were some people from France or companies that I represented and from England   and the business grew and then when I was well I was still alone and then I was lucky to meet somebody (and) somebody

[1:46:42] is still with me even though all my impatience and all my other not so nice characteristics [laughs] and it was Kjeld   uh who joined me in the business and we had a very successful business it went very well until the time came to retire   and he was so he

[1:47:08] was very very supportive   and it has been how long ? [to the side:] 33 years ? 34 years ?

[1:47:16] it will be 34 years this year

[1:47:19] 34 years that’s a record [laughs] it’s a record for me [laughs] and after 34 years we are still very happily together not always there are little things you know like in every relationship [laughing:] he is listening to me so I have to be very careful

[1:47:38] what I’m saying   no it was very wonderful years of my life  

[1:47:48] and w- as I said after the business we (created) we retired and uhm stopped working in business together but that doesn’t mean we didn’t work together we did some other things development

[1:48:11] and things like that   and then came 2005 [laughs] so it looks like we came (in) full circle and uh   spent talking a lot about that time   until it came to 2010 and we’re back in Berlin where we started again so I don’t know whether   where this is going

[1:48:38] to lead but it’s the things that I was talking about they are still very   vital in my life and I think that is so terribly impor- important to be passionate about something you know and I’m very passionate about what I believe in   and no matter how old

[1:49:04] one is if you can maintain this kind of passion for life   the things have changed in a way that whilst I have in acceptance to a degree what has happened   I speak about it much more now   and   I keep saying that that’s important because I I I I don’t want

[1:49:42] to sound so oh you know »this is the end of my life« it is not yet but it is coming and it’s you [stressed:] must pass on to to to the next generation I keep saying I am the past the young people today are the future and if you want to do something about

[1:49:57] change the things about the future and that’s and there’s an enormous need to change things about future not only in the question of which I was talking all the time but about our own survival what’s happening with the weather what’s happening with

[1:50:11] all the other phenomenons   the the awareness of   this life is so important to the young generation in a way I I I I don’t know whether I feel guilty about it but I think »could I have done more than I have done« to make young people aware that the things

[1:50:34] have to change to be different to make sure that their life is going to be better in a way and that we do not repeat the mistakes of the past I don’t know I I’ve I’ve tried my little bit and I hope that [shrugs] somewhere it will make a difference   can

[1:50:55] we finish on that perhaps ? [laughs] yes ? no ? or you want to know some more

[1:50:59] I I would like to ask you one more question

[1:51:02] absolutely

[1:51:04] if I’m allowed to uhm uhm this is something that goes throughout uhm your book at least I read it in that book uhm that is a longing for truth uhm you said when you uhm after you were liberated uhm I think the sentence in your book is »I’m not a historian

[1:51:25] I’m a survivor I don’t count those that survived I only uhm I only look around me and I can tell what I saw« you mentioned that again uhm with respect to the trial against Hildebrand that you only could talk about what you saw and this is you know this

[1:51:43] is something that’s also important in this very moment because you’re you’re speaking as a witness to your life uhm I wonder if you could comment uhm on that notion of truth on being a witness and uhm   uhm people come to you and and say and a- and asking

[1:52:07] you questions uhm about things you didn’t actually see but you are because you are a uhm a witness to uhm the history of the Holocaust could you comment on

[1:52:17] yeah I could comment on you ask a very easy question isn’t it [laughs] the question of the truth [laughs]

[1:52:23] yeah okay

[1:52:25] I I think that many much more wiser people that have been trying to answer this question I don’t know if they have dealt with that yet what is the truth ? the truth is our own interpretation the way we understand what is happening I don’t know what the

[1:52:43] truth is for you I know my truth I don’t know what the truth is   for this lovely young lady here for Basia or I don’t know what’s the truth for my husband Kjeld   I think we see all of us see things differently this is a little bit like the memories which

[1:53:04] I don’t know that I touched so much on that   yes this is this is a part of my questioning   I and somebody else could have been in the same place at the same time seeing the same people and I would say »this is truthfully what I saw« and the other person

[1:53:23] can say the same and in the end there will be two tot- totally different interpretations of that   so what is the truth for me ? what is the truth made of really ? to be totally objective I don’t think that such thing will exist   even though I often speak about

[1:53:50] that and I say »objectively I think this and this and this« my objectivity like my truth is interpreted by my early influences and also by the influences of uh in my case very strongly my mother and and my brother   I see something so   is that actually what

[1:54:17] I’m really seeing ?   I say for me my answer is yes   because   I’m really trying   to interpret this what is within my own understanding is it truth for a situation which occurred at the at the time so   my concept of seeing something truthfully or experiencing

[1:54:52] it truthfully it’s only my own interpretation   and it is totally subjective   it’s not objective at all because it is what I express what I think is the right thing   so my comment about it is what I’ve just said now it is subjective opinion of you own

[1:55:16] memory [gesticulates] of happened to you and it’s only for you and not for everybody else it’s not your truth [points at Daniel Baranowski] it’s not Basia’s truth it’s my truth and I don’t know whether it makes sense to anybody but that’s the

[1:55:34] way I interpret it   does it makes sense to you ?

[1:55:37] yeah I fully understand

[1:55:39] [laughs] good I’m happy about that   yes and it is taking this in a larger much larger scale the truth of the events you know [shrugs; sighs]   how everybody’s got a truthful interpretation of it and I would say to somebody »well this is one big lie what

[1:56:05] you are telling me« and they say [gesticulates] »oh that’s not true this is truth« who is right ? I’m right they are right (as) many opinions there are they’re right what’s right and wrong this is going to go into philosophical questions [laughs]

[1:56:20] and I don’t want to go into that now really because that is very hard very hard interpretations but uh   I can only speak for myself and this is when being mentioned about the Hildebrand case there were other people witnesses present I wasn’t there I tried

[1:56:38] to be an honest and truthful witness even though I knew that there was the man who killed my brother and father but I could only see what I saw at the time I couldn’t tell him that I was there because I wasn’t there   and this is where I hope to that I

[1:56:57] was a good truthful witness which I was   I could have said very often people want to do something good and and they will speak for somebody »oh yes I saw it« well I didn’t so I couldn’t say that I saw it   well that’s the truth [smiles]

[1:57:17] uh I

[1:57:20] difficult questions

[1:57:22] I would still be interested in what writing has meant in your life because you kept a diary during the war and you also kept a diary later what meaning did this have for you to be experiencing what you’re experiencing and then to be able to write it down

[1:57:35] uhm has has writing played a big role in your life or is it just something that’s always accompanied you (_)

[1:57:41] it was very important that’s that’s that was always I still keep writing I think that that is uh the necessity to express oneself when there is uh when there is not much uh well   even if you can talk to somebody all the time   it comes back to the truth

[1:58:06] [smiles] I think that in a conversation with other and sharing   thoughts with other which I write about that I’ve got no one to talk to I I I I was deprived very often of the possibility of talking to someone so that was my way of expressing myself as truthfully

[1:58:26] as I saw it   right so that’s why it was very very important to me it was always uhm a very great relief of pain of fears of whatever I felt at the moment and   it is amazing even to me how these diaries (_) survived because as I mentioned before with the

[1:58:57] photographs having it carrying it around writing truthfully about situations about who I am where did I keep it ? in my rucksack ? if I carried it around I (_) that was the only place I could keep it because I didn’t have anywhere where to hide it there were

[1:59:14] some diaries that I wrote and I threw out because I was just as well because we were discovered in in certain places of hiding but the others I kept and continued for   my life after the Holocaust surviving and and then uh (with) my marriages and it was very

[1:59:38] important expression and sharing this is like young girls like [gesticulates] »my dear diary« and all this kind of a writing in the beginning too it is interesting even for me (_) uhm you know Basia because you were translating from my Polish text how naive

[1:59:59] and stupid I was [laughs] I can’t believe that but I suppose that was a part of growing up now that I have agreed to having it translated into English and German everybody will know   uh yes it was very very important part of my life of of what I was doing

[2:00:20] (here) and it still is I’m still writing

[2:00:22] did you begin writing in English when you moved to Australia or did you always write in Polish ?

[2:00:27] no I write in English now I become very lazy it’s easier for me to write in English it’s uh easier for me to express myself in English   yeah

[2:00:36] do you know when that change occurred do you know more or less when in your life

[2:00:41] sorry ?

[2:00:43] do you know more or less when that change occurred when you switched to English as the main language

[2:00:46] what year uh

[2:00:48] it doesn’t have to be which year but just more or less

[2:00:50] no no no not year but when I when I arrived in Australia I did not speak a word of English and I very quickly realised that (if) I want to become part of the society that I moved in I had to learn the language I mean this is a very important thing [drinks]  

[2:01:05] and also I like studying and I like studying languages so   I didn’t mention that before but uhm I started reading fairly soon in English and there was a very very well known there is a very well- I don't know whether he is alive Kingsley Amis quite a well-known

[2:01:26] writer English writer and there was a book which he wrote that everybody found very amusing and I thought well sense of humour varies and a Polish sense of humour particularly [laughs] say a Polish sense of humour you know and an English sense of humour so

[2:01:46] I started reading this book and I didn’t laugh that was the first time I read this book five times it was only in fifth times that I got the humour of the book so perhaps it was then that I started writing in English but I’m not sure but it was a few years

[2:02:05] after the arrival in Australia when it became much easier for me uhm sort of writing in English and and I mean I still write in Polish but it takes a bit longer [smiles]

[2:02:16] yes

[2:02:18] uh you uh write in you book that uh time has erased certain memories and that you you just don’t remember certain things but that what time hasn’t erased is certain fears that you still have uhm from the war and just certain feelings that that still accompany

[2:02:36] you every day could you maybe say something about that you said that from all the different hiding places that you were in you still prefer living in large spaces and that you do not like being in small confined spaces how do you still see it on an every day

[2:02:51] basis that these ex- how these experiences still influence you ?

[2:02:56] yeah I do write quite a lot about the memory because uh I mentioned in our conversation before that it was important for me uhm that that the book is honest and and truthful [laughs] we’re going back to what Daniel asked about uh my life that I don’t fabricate

[2:03:15] things   so   I was not it’s not so much that I have forgotten but that I could see it differently today through the perspective of time and not only perspective of time but also from my development as a human being and my growth and I hope I did that of course

[2:03:37] uh so you interpret things differently from there so that was the question of my memory and then I (was) as I see it now or was it different it was very important to to that I do really think about it and I don’t want to go into it now but in in my I’ll

[2:04:00] be giving a little talk I write about how do I remember things because it’s not only cerebral kind of things it’s other things as well   but there are certain things which are   which I can’t really answer I would I actually I have got a cousin who is

[2:04:18] a psychologist and maybe I’ll talk to him about it why is it that the certain emotions are forgotten and others are so very strong within us and this is what you touched down upon for instance uh I’m afraid of the closed places and that has to do with

[2:04:35] me living underground living in the bunker uh uh we we have a very beautiful home now in Australia and every time when this is the second time that we built a home uh I always insist on it that we have not only the high ceilings but there is a a [gesticulates;

[2:04:54] to the side:] how do you call the v- ? how do you call the

[2:04:57] void

[2:04:59] pardon

[2:05:01] a void

[2:05:03] a void a void a very high very high void so that there is so much light and and th- and the sun and everything comes in the house I’m terrified of very low ceilings in something [ducks] that I feel that I’m in hiding again why is that that that memory

[2:05:16] is so strong still after all those years that that’s really something I would like to know I don’t know why it is like this but it is very strong with me   I remember other things I remember when I was   hit by somebody you know I remember the colours I

[2:05:34] remember the smells so there are certain emotions which are very very strong with us uh and   normally we would think »oh I don’t remember (how I felt that) time very often we’re saying it I mean I don’t know what I felt in there but those this must

[2:05:51] have been so terrifying to us that they remain very strong in there I mean I I don’t know how people who went trough when [sighs] when we were I was speaking about the certain uhm organisations that I   joined when I was I was part of it well there were people

[2:06:10] who were (_) suffering from the trauma of uh torture I don’t know how you ever get over this I mean I don’t know whatever terrifying experiences not my own some I (mean) the people who in this particular association you know   amazingly I remember being

[2:06:30] hungry I know what it feels like being hungry and yet when I thought that I ought to go and to slim a little bit I went to a place where I didn’t eat for seven days or something that didn’t terrify me but I remember hunger because I I experienced hunger  

[2:06:51] well I think that we are so complicated in our mind so wonderful and so interesting and I can’t answer how it works   but this is how I feel about it

[2:07:06] I think we should at least very briefly mention that you’re going to meet Berthold Beitz next week and uhm

[2:07:17] that’s wonderful

[2:07:20] that uh that this person means a lot to you

[2:07:22] yes   yes well during these experiences as when I spoke about Borysław when we had uh the industry which was uh dealing with oil or naphtha   again I don’t know whether it was 1940s 42 43 that uh Berthold Beitz came to Borysław and he was responsible   for

[2:07:49] this particular industry and as such he had a he was he needed to employ as many people who were specialists in dealing with the industry who were trained in this way and there were a number of Jewish engineers and workers who worked in the industry and uh

[2:08:13] they were given a a special permission to be employed in the industry and as such uh I don’t know what the R in German stands for maybe you can say a special [points at her jacket] uh uh

[2:08:31] Rüstung

[2:08:33] [simultaneously:] concerning the prisoners ?

[2:08:35] what ?

[2:08:38] Rüstung

[2:08:40] no no no no

[2:08:45] it’s Rüstung

[2:08:50] [simultaneously:] concerning the prisoners that’s Rüstung

[2:08:52] uh it it it uh there is a German word for it (complete) things but I don’t know it it is it meant that those people who had this R were specially employed in a very important industry and they were to be protected   and uhm so I I don’t know exactly the

[2:08:58] the whole sentence or the whole meaning of that thing in German word for it and uh Mister Beitz was in charge of these things and as such whenever he could whenever there was a transport which was going to   (Belz) for instance enormous transport in one of

[2:09:22] the actions which was taken there he would go he knew in advance that this is going to happen he would go to this to the uhm   station and would call out and personally request that so and so number of people would be specially uhm released from the transports

[2:09:42] because they are needed uh in the industry because they are his very special people and without them the industry would collapse or something to this effect and and very often he would take for instance there was a woman who was a cleaner in there uh uh in

[2:10:01] the (__) he thought (__) and she was something like fifty years old or something so he said she is absolutely necessary to the industry and the Gestapo people there »an old woman ? what can she do in the industry« he said »well you don’t know« you know

[2:10:16] »when I say that she is needed she is needed« and in that way he is I wasn’t there I was not not a witness to it because I didn’t see it but we know about it that he saved quite a few hundred Jewish people not all of them survived because on other occasions

[2:10:32] they were taken away but a number of people survived and they were the witness for him and he is now the Righteous Among the Nations he is uh recognised by Yad Vashem as a very special man and the man is very young he is only 97 years old now and I personally

[2:10:54] cannot believe that he has invited me to lunch with him and we are going to meet him   for me it is like a legend I I I don’t really know how to describe it i- i- it is unbelievable I can’t believe that this is happening I don’t think I’ll believe it

[2:11:14] until I’m actually there but it is happening we are going he lives in Essen and uh I think it’s the 17th of May Monday that we are invited to join him Kjeld and I and Uwe and Uli we're joining him for lunch in Essen and I think that’s even going to be

[2:11:34] filmed ! I think so   again I don’t know how I’m going to react to that (_) I wonder why he really agreed to do that but I’m very grateful of course because it is for me he is a hero you know a man uh a German man in the position that he was uhm   uhm  

[2:11:57] he m- he knew that he was risking his position to a certain degree because uh the he was denounced on a few occasions and uh called to the Gestapo and interrogated what he was doing   so [exhales] this is another event an incredible event in my life that is

[2:12:22] going to happen I’m very excited and uh very looking very forward to that [smiles] yes that’s Mister Beitz from Borysław I wonder what Borysław meant to him [drinks] I don’t know if I can ask him this question I don’t know what he uh I understand

[2:12:45] that he is not very talkative I’m not surprised at 97 but I really wonder how does he speaking about the memory he is 97 years old now how does [stressed:] does he remember anything and how does he remember and how truthful is he his interpretation of what

[2:13:05] he remembers yeah ? all this questions I told you it’s a circle keeps coming back   yeah so that’s going to happen on the 17th   how was that [laughs]

[2:13:20] uhm do you have any positive memories of Borysław from your childhood from before the war any particular images that you still have in mind any places that you you especially fondly remember I don’t know any any cafés or or maybe your school or just any

[2:13:39] any images that you still have of of happy Borysław

[2:13:43] well you know uh part of these things that I keep thinking about is some Holocaust survivors recovered better than the others and I think that I have recovered reasonably well uh I I immediately after that I had was some extremely difficult post-traumatic

[2:14:06] times but I think that part of my fairly positive recovery is my childhood I had a very happy childhood a wonderful childhood I had an extraordinary mother and I had a wonderful wonderful brother and I feel a little bit guilty about my father because I did

[2:14:30] not communicate with my father very well but then children at this time normally did not communicate with parents   and yet my mother was so much ahead of her times she we talked about everything   and   obviously I had two grandparents but with my grandparents

[2:14:50] who lived uh peasants they were they had a very small property closed to Przemyśl and Hureczko for my grandfather I don’t think that I exchanged anything with him any conversation all I remember was his eyes and I have a weakness for blue eyes Kjeld has

[2:15:10] got blue eyes and [smiles] because my grandfather had blue eyes and I remember looking in these blue eyes you know [laughs] and (thinking) »this is my grandfather but who is he really ?« I didn’t didn't speak to him but I spoke to my grandmother who was

[2:15:26] uh the motor of everything and and she was absolutely lovely   so I have memories a little bit of this of this place and I have a memory like uhm my grandmother thought that I should have inherited anything that comes naturally to her like riding a horse [laughs]

[2:15:47] you know so she put me on a horse I think I was about seven eight years old and she clapped the horse [gesticulates] and the horse went and I went right down [laughs] you know I don’t ride a horse that is in my memory I have never ridden a horse since but

[2:16:03] it was a good memory it was a beautiful memory a memory of of of of countries and and   I I didn’t I I could never learn the difference between the trees and she was very unhappy about it that I didn’t know one tree from the other you know [laughs] my brother

[2:16:24] did I didn’t but that were very happy memories and also at home   I have wonderful memories I was always a reader when I was a very small girl always I always read and uh   when we were going to sleep and I was I had to switch the lights off I remember using

[2:16:47] the blowtorch and reading you know at night things like this and my mother saying »if you think I don’t see you I see you I see what you are doing« and things like that so I had very happy memories from my childhood and my brother was very supportive for

[2:17:02] me as well and I think that uh so many people who suffer from bad memories of homes well I have beautiful memories and that would help me   yeah places   mh that was lucky for me again you see I’m a lucky person [laughs]   yeah anything else you would like

[2:17:28] to know I’m still here I’m still willing (__)

[2:17:30] I think we’ve come

[2:17:32] pardon ?

[2:17:35] uhm to kind of a circle now because we started in 2010 and the last question was uhm about your childhood so Barbara I don’t know if you’ve got any more questions

[2:17:44] well I surely have very many questions but [laughs]

[2:17:48] yes actually I do so myself but uhm

[2:17:50] well I I I I hope that you know that I have shared with you quite a lot it’s it’s uh difficult to speak about oneself and but it’s part of what I keep saying that I’m doing it so because really I want to pass on to another generation something of my

[2:18:12] own life which perhaps it’ll help somebody along the way you know with the problems in dealing if I can achieve a little bit then I’ll be very happy about that

[2:18:23] mhm   very thankful that you agreed to do this interview

[2:18:27] thank you

[2:18:29] thank you for listening [laughs]

[2:18:32] thank you

[2:18:32] thanks