Heinz Dario Salvator Kounio (*19.06.1927, Karlsbad)

[0:00]   ähm wir sind in Thessaloniki Griechenland und führen heute ein Interview mit Heinz Dario K   ähm es ist der achte September 2009 es ist ein Interview für das Projekt »Leben mit der Erinnerung« der Stiftung Denkmal für die ermordeten Juden Europas  

[0:14] ich bin Daniel Baranowski führ das Interview zusammen mit Ulrich Baumann Uwe Seemann ist für die Kamera zuständig  

[0:23] Mister K can you start by telling us a little bit about your parents and when you were born

[0:30] first of all welcome   in our house   I'm pleased to have met you   my name is Heinz K   I was born in Karlsbad   my mother   was from Karlsbad   and that's the reason why I was born there   they brought me in Greece about twenty days after I was born   she

[1:06] was at that time visiting her   parents   her father was   a   very respected engineer   civil engineer   and they lived in Karlsbad   and every year   us children we visited Karlsbad   from Saloniki   and stayed there for about two months   we haved a very

[1:42] good life as young people here   the business of my father Salvator   was flourishing   it was a photographic business   (we call it) he was sal- a businessman who was selling photographic articles he didn't have any studio but just selling whatever was necessary

[2:06] for the photographers   it was a developing business at that time and still is   and now today we are one of the oldest photographic firms in Greece or maybe in Europa

[2:22] so it still exists ?

[2:24] it still exists because it was started in the year 1970 17 one seven   we haved a very nice   life here   I mean us   children   and young people   Salonika is a beautiful town and you can see also yourselves how beautiful it is it's beautifully situated  

[2:55] and one thing that you never forget from Salonika   is the very beautiful sunsets

[3:03] uh huh

[3:05] which are famous   the colours of the sky you don't see anything today ya but otherwise from here out you can see and you will stay   like a magician there say »I want now a to paint it« [brushing movement] it's very beautiful

[3:26] do you remember that from your childhood

[3:28] yes yes

[3:30] the sunset ?

[3:32] I do remember it very very very much and I must say now you brought me new memories  

[3:38] I remember when   the day that uh Greece capitulated and the Germans armies were coming in Greece and we were staying in our   veranda of this house which was not at that time

[3:58] constructed it was a simple house a small house here   and we were staying and seeing these sunsets and they were sunsets   very red ! it was a sunset that the whole sky [gesticulates]   became red   with beautiful nuances   and (well we) and we said now

[4:26] what is coming here what tragic days are before our eyes because it was the days when J- Greece   after six months about of the Italian war with Greece it started the German occupation there were one day before the German occupation we were staying just

[4:46] here and saying what will happen   our lives as young children were very beautiful   we didn't have anything sp- serious things to think about so the whole day especially summer days about for nine months waiting for s-   [shaking his head] uh six months we

[5:14] were all the day outside we haved the front of the sea here just in front of us we just sprang on the sea   there were two walls before parallel walls to protect the ground from the sea   this everything now has changed   the coast has been filled up   the

[5:40] tragic days the beautiful days (one)   they start they always finish uh   they never continue  

[5:48] the Italian war started   came the offensive of the Italians and then we haved the offensive of the German army I am speaking now already about the   Hitler period

[6:03]   and Greece could not fight anymore so it capitulated   what I remember   mostly   of these days   which is stamped in my mind was the first day of the entrance of the German army   in Salonika   I remember it very well   because it touched us but it touch-

[6:42] -ed it touched us in a rather curious way   immediately in the first day of entrance   in the afternoon   we still were afraid we didn't know who are the German army ? I mean I mean who are the SS we have heard many things about the SS or the Gestapo (for)

[7:05] everything and and we were also Jews we know that   we were afraid   and in the afternoon   a German jeep of the army you know the special parts of the army of the German army that are nearly the same like the jeeps uh   came with an officer   and an assistant

[7:29] and a big red flag with the Hakenkreuz in the Mittel in the middle   and stopped before our house   we became very much afraid I will never forget my father spoke very well   English and German and he he spoke m- many languages my mother you know from Sudet-

[7:59] from Sudetenland she spoke very well German   so I will have in my eyes always it was a house of two stories and they had stairs to come out on the street my father pushed my mother »go forward you you you speak well well German they will respect you better«

[8:18] [laughing:] he thought so   and »open the door !«   it was an officer   he was very very gen- uh I mean not kind but he was typical German officer he was gentle and uh he saluted   we opened the door »please come in« and he said   »don't be afraid«   just

[8:50] like that   »what I want from you is that you come with me   and we go to your store and you deliver to me the Leicas you have«   you know Leica ?

[9:09] uh huh

[9:11] it was a very famous camera   one of the most famous at least   and uh we were importing also cameras at that time and we imported also Leicas   and we have had one parcel of 32 cameras Leicas complete set   the very last model which was the Leica   three

[9:38] three three A I believe it was I don't remember exactly now   of the last series during the war that was produced during the war there were sets camera body   lenses two one wide angle and two tele lenses something like that   and they knew about this cameras

[10:02] already   because they were   very   they knew what they asked   and they wanted to have these cameras but they took my father together   and when they left they said to my mother »don't worry he will return back to you«

[10:26] did they explain to you what they needed the cameras for ?

[10:29] no no the- there were cameras that they needed for the- they as far as I know there were cameras that they gave (them) to the higher officers (s-) and things like that   so they beschlagnahmt how he call it in English I don't remember now [gesticulates]

[10:46] it's in my both comes Deutsch and English

[10:49] that's okay

[10:51] they took the cameras   they went to our shop   and they made uh very uh   a s- a search to find cameras but we did not have the cameras in the shop because the cameras   were still on the custom house we had n- we had them not yet taken out of the customs   to

[11:18] make a short story   they went to the custom house together with my father h- my father signed papers and they took the parc- parcels away   that was the first contact with the occupation force   the   then started   a mild occupation I would say   I would say

[11:51] that it was a mild occupation   after a certain plan of some officers how to do it probably not to terrify people and things like that   they   as I told before they went to the post office and took the cameras away   they just gave us one piece of paper   it

[12:23] was just like this not even a good paper it had one seal on it just like that [making circular movement on couch] a big seal and then it said so many cameras (th- ___) and that was all   and that was the first actual contact  

[12:43] then the measure started coming

[12:49] softly because we must not forget the Germans ent- the German army entered Salonika in April   must be (tenth of February something like that was)   and uh   they started their measures   step by step   of course measures against the Jews were not started immediately

[13:22] they were started a few months after   they had contact with the Jews I mean what kind of contact you say fir- first step was that they took rooms rooms for high officers because our house was a nice house with two floors so they came to the house and uh confiscated

[13:48] one room and they put the high officer of the police it was a high officer tha- he was commissioned he was not any active anymore but he was recommissioned due to the war   uh he was from Königsberg (Jurgscheit) was his name   and he stayed in the house for

[14:13] several months

[14:17] on the first floor ?

[14:20] on the fir- he had his own room no not on the first on the second floor he has his bedroom and he lived with us and he went every morning was his ordinance was with him he (wagoned) him he started he   he started he prepared his clothes and everything and several

[14:37] nights (will) my father stayed with him long hours discussing   for everything

[14:44] and did you

[14:46] [interrupting:] they became I would say they became like friends uh

[14:51] and did you or your sister talk to him ?

[14:54] yes

[14:57] yes

[14:59] yes we talked to him he was very civilised uh and he was a uh a- a police officer that was recommissioned uh he was on the re- rent- rents you call it in Germany I think

[15:07] and does uh his ordinance uh lived also so lived also in your house or ?

[15:15] no

[15:18] no

[15:20] the ordinance didn't live in the house no

[15:23] okay he came everyday

[15:25] he came extra every day

[15:27] [simultaneously:] to wake him ?

[15:29] yes he he lived alone here   he lived alone

[15:31] [simultaneously:] okay

[15:33] and so started the occupation for us uh   of course we were always guarded   I mean not with guards but uh in speaking and uh one is the occupant the other one is uh not a slave but he's under occupation okay y- yo- you cannot say what you want but still

[15:52] he was an ordinary man always and he was very kind man   and he started speaking about his family in Königsberg about his children and how he missed them et cetera and they became in a kind of of of of a friendly friendly contacts he was living in in a

[16:13] he he was (hosted) in a kind in a kind of way but this was our first contact   one day before the occupation that is what I said you also before   we children and the family were in the terrace of this house of not this house of the old house and looking down

[16:38] and we looked how the Greek army put the dynamite in all the stores of the custom house and all the military things that they didn't want to leave here and we knew that in two days one day the Germans will enter and we saw always that beautiful sunset of Salonika

[16:59] which will c- never forget   and this has stayed for many many years also in the mind here and we spoke »look even the sun has become red« it was a red sunset we have them very very often beginning of April and up to June the whole sunsets here are the most

[17:23] beautiful sunsets we have seen red yellow green everything it it's the very beautiful sight  

[17:31] anyhow so the German oc- occupation started mild started uh without uh how can we call arres- arrests or things like that my father continued to go down to the

[17:47] town he opened the store for several months and there were   immediately at the beginning of the occupation in order to make the specially the Jewish population   to become afraid of the Germans or to show power to show we are here and don't don't move uh they

[18:13] just took hostages and they took eleven hostages and they killed them they shot them just to terrify the population and then everything is calm again and the measures started coming one after the other not specially against the Jews but mil- mild measures

[18:38] like you are not anymore allowed to take the tramway you have to walk uh and such things uh just to terrify you or to separate you from the others but not yet to bring us out of this house these measures came later   in uh the year I believe in no I know

[19:05] the year it's 42   they came   one day   special people from the Abwehr I believe I believe and they make a search   a special search in the house where we're living and a special search in the store   they took everything out specially wherever there were books

[19:35] and papers they took the books they opened the books and they made them [gesticulates] like that like looking to find out perhaps hidden letters and things like that in the shop they took all the archives they put them down and everything they break it up

[19:49] et cetera   they were looking something that was written (in) the paper   they didn't find anything   because we didn't have anything to hide uh   after the war we learned what happened   we have had a   a manufacturer   who represented a German manufacturer

[20:23] who produced small magnifying les- lenses   and he had a son   very nice boy and he wrote to my father that wa- was we were already occupied uh   and he said to my to my father »please Salvator« Salvator was the name of my father »my son   will be transferred

[20:54] to Salonika as long as he stays in Salonika give him hospitality«   why not ?   actually he came and stayed   and   after a while   he was arrested   for some reason

[21:20] that son ?

[21:23] the son   and he was shot down   why ? we never knew   he was arrested probably   on uh treason I don't know if they found anything but as far as we know   he was transferred to Kreta and from there vanished   he lived in uh (Elbe Elme) in uh near near Kolonia

[21:57] I think it's (Elme) somewhere there

[22:00] (what Elme) ?

[22:03] what does it say to you ?

[22:05] (Elme) ?

[22:07] no (Elme) is not near Kolonia but I remember he was living somewhere nea- in the Ruhr

[22:09] yeah

[22:11] Elberfeld maybe ?

[22:13] no

[22:15] okay

[22:17] no   anyhow   his story is   that he went in Kreta   to fight   and   for some reason which we don't know he was arrested and shot and it was immediately connected where he lived in Greece he lived (in a Jew) »let's go and see if there is any treason there« who

[22:44] knows what happened ? but still they didn't find anything so we come slowly but they arrest my father   they arrest my mother they arrest uh mother and father yes   and I don't remember if they arrested yes and I suppose also my grandfather and they put them

[23:05] in the most formidables prison that exists in Salonika which you can see here just there at the on the top of the hill up on the top is a fortress that fortress become a prison and it was the prison of those that were lost forever   it was a prison where whoever

[23:28] went there they would shoot him

[23:30] was that only a prison under the German occupation ?

[23:35] yes yes yes yes

[23:37] yes   [simultaneously:] or before that

[23:40] no no that was that was always a prison

[23:43] always a prison

[23:45] but for civil uh civil uh tr- faults let's say   they stayed there for about one month   and they passed tribunal a German tribunal   a military German tribunal and that is in August 1942 and they were judged they were released   you can see here still   military

[24:14] conduct civil conduct if uh although they were Hebr- they were Jews   they passed the German tribunal and they were acquitted as being innocent   now what charges there were we don't know

[24:33] do you uhm happen to remember the name of the the family and the son who was sent to Saloniki and later shot the family name of those friends of or partners of your father the uh who which name they had ?

[24:54] just a moment which names you want ?

[24:57] uh the the name of this young man who uh uh who caused all this trouble

[25:03] that was a German soldier

[25:05] okay uh

[25:08] uh   I don't remember them now

[25:11] okay

[25:14] I don- I don't remember them now no but very nice boy

[25:17] hm uhm

[25:19] very nice boy

[25:23] hm uhm

[25:31] but probably he spoke too much I don't know probably he did something

[25:33] hm uhm

[25:35] I don't know he might have done something

[25:37] hm uhm

[25:39] I don't we don't know but the main thing is that it was (fault) but the tribunal acquitted my father a German tribunal although he was Jewish he acquitted my father   and my mother of course because they came back   although shut down in that infamous prison

[25:50] uh from this prison no one came out alive uh and it was a German tribunal military tribunal that acquitted him   after that affair things are start rolling   faster

[26:06] can I ask one more question uhm how did life go on for you and your sister during that period when your parents were gone ?

[26:15] alone

[26:18] alone

[26:22] we were completely alone here in this house

[26:24] and you were afraid probably ?

[26:26] no we ha- we had also our grandfa- our grandfather here   who had lost his wife who died in Salonika during the occupation   but for a period we were completely alone but we were not afraid no

[26:39] uhm hm

[26:42] no   on the contrary you know   at that time people tried to I mean Greek people uh tried to enjoy as much as possible his life they made parties although they had guns [gesticulates] they made party [laughs] and we had also w- uh we did not rea- we realised

[27:08] that they are in great danger   but they were acquitted

[27:13] uhm hm

[27:15] and that was the most important thing anyhow  

[27:17] in uh time goes a little further now and then come the first measures the real the hard measures the soft measures were that Jews were not allowed to enter a public bus public transportation but this you could

[27:38] overcome it in a way   uh the the hard measures came after that was already by January   January 1943   then came a special commando from Germany   the Wisliceny-Kommando he had two helpers Brunner and some others   and they had the task to eliminate the Jewish

[28:10] community   Eichmann came down to Salonika for one night that was either in January or Febru- I believe it was January 1943   in the meantime they had   this the Germans had destroyed the big cemetery here in Salonika was the biggest cemetery of th- in the world

[28:38] Jewish cemetery where you could find about 300- to 350000 tombs most of those tombs the upper part is of Marmor

[28:51] uhm hm

[28:53] they des- they said these tombs uh do not allow the expansion of the town which was not so true   so they must be destroyed and they destroyed them within 15 days there was not a single tomb anymore to see   it just vanished because it was precious Marmor (that)

[29:26] was very simple they sold the Marmor   now don't ask me who sold it if it was the German occupation forces (if) it was someone else's someone sold it uh due to this order and they vanished   I remember very well that for a few days they allowed the transportation

[29:46] of the dead to the new cemetery but that only   endured about ten days so most of it stayed there and in the place of the cemetery   and an additional place which you cannot separate today which was free to- free land is now seated the University of Saloniki

[30:11] uhm hm

[30:15] because it wanted to expand and at that time all around it was a Jewish cemetery

[30:19] so that's where the university is still today ?

[30:23] so that's where the university is still today yes   but uh they are rightfully there because they they had the land and they probably th- that was just on the border and things like that

[30:38] and did I get it right that uhm they allowed you to uhm to carry away the corpses

[30:46] yes

[30:48] for just a few days to another place

[30:52] [simultaneously:] for just a few days

[30:57] to to a new cemetery ?

[31:00] yes they gave us the   the mayor of the town gave a new place where the Jewish cemetery is today and they are allowed to transport them   of course with a car or something

[31:05] yeah

[31:07] to exhume them and transport them

[31:09] did you take part or your family take part at this transport did you bring some of your

[31:12] [shakes his head] no no it was too late

[31:16] [whispering:] no   it was too late

[31:18] about   they had twenty families thirty families you can see the graves from that time

[31:22] uhm hm okay

[31:24] the new graves made

[31:26] yeah

[31:29]   we started to getting terrified now things become harder   with the arrival of Eichmann sudden arrival of Eichmann I don't remember exactly he the date it must be either in January or the latest beginning of February   he uh he makes a collaboration with

[31:54] Brunner and another man he- there Wisliceny   and they   approve not approve they will put the Nuremberg laws in force   the hard Nuremberg laws not the soft ones the soft were already in place uh   and one of these Jews must get into ghettos   they create the

[32:26] first ghettos in Salonika Salonika had never a ghetto   because in the other western countries of Europe there were several times that there were ghettos but never in Salonika   Jews in Salonika lived intermixed with the Christians and there were never a separation  

[32:47] we had to move and leave this house where we're standing now and go to the ghetto the town was separated into three or four different ghettos and all Jews had to go there the only thing that we were allowed to transport i- was a small case of ten kilograms

[33:13] and that was all and everything to leave it in the house there   the shop was confiscated   and we moved to the ghetto of Makedonia it's called Makedonia is just on the north of this side [gesticulates] of the town   we stayed very short there because one

[33:37] measure now follows after the other very quickly and just not to leave you time to think what happens   my father and mother started to think what will happen an- and how are we going to save the child and themselves and try to find some they had already had

[33:57] the pressures from Greek Christian friends »go away from Salonika« they saw a little further   »go there where we shall tell you we have friends in the mountains you can go there (you'll be gi-) « o- or also the last one I re- I wi- remember it was some

[34:13] good friend came to my father said »give us the children !«   but he as usually was done the whole family will go together wherever it goes  

[34:24] now to make this story short   we went to the ghetto and from the ghetto six days after starts the first transport  

[34:38] the first transport of Jews for   Auschwitz   somehow   the German SS   wanted to eliminate my family first why ? I don't know one day in the ghetto comes an SS-man with another helper   »you are the K family ?« »yes we are« »come with me« they take us

[35:21] all four and they bring us to the first transport ghetto they had done   transport ghetto   they had enclosed all the pl- all the territory which was very near the   railroad station and there was the ghetto of Baron Hirsch called it was a place where Baron Hirsch

[35:47] has made special not special had has made barracks and houses for the very poor Jews   before the occupation of the Germans and all this place was surrounded and the University of Salonika had also a school there which is still there this place is still intact

[36:09] but it was very near the gate of the station and from there they started emptying this place and bringing other parts of other places there and inside a few months within three months Salonika was emptied from all the Jews but we were the first number one

[36:32] transport   because this place was the first emptied   so it was March 15th one day of 1943   every Jew   has to be moved from the ghetto of Baron Hirsch   early in the morning five o'clock in the morning and go to the railroad station which was just   [gesticulates]

[37:05] a distance of fifty metres away (already)   and that was the first transport and we were the first transport inside but we were not those Jews that lived in that place we were brought to that place ten days before   that place to of this ghetto where all poor

[37:28] Jews   labourers and this is important for my story afterwards as you will see   mostly labourers and the fishers   fishers of the town the Jew- the fishers of the town were mostly also Jews uh we're many when we say mostly that's not correct because we we were

[37:54] nearly 60000 people here so we're many   actually we're not sixty we were 49000 exactly because I I I have selected all the datas on that   they put us on the train number one transport and the only one as you will see afterwards   of all those people we were

[38:23] saved why ? not we are the only ones but we were happy we are now happy that we were the first   why ?   the train for the trans- you know the story they put us in wagons [gesticulates] they are the usual transport wagons closed then both two doors one on the

[38:45] front one on the behind they are just rolling doors   they take about seventy to eighty people   standing   all the time   and every wagon about so many people seventy to eighty   the whole transport is 2800 and we become the very number one transport from Greece  

[39:14] we arrived in Auschwitz a-   on the night of the twentieth of March  

[39:21] I can remember very little about what what happened in the wagon inside I remember I was most of the time always standing we were allowed only one time to go out of the train and that was

[39:40] already when the train was in the north of Serbia   and the next night we arrived in Auschwitz   I will speak about a few words about the first night or the first day of arrival it is important it's because it impressed me very much   it was around eleven

[40:05] o'clock perhaps when the train entered the Auschwitz gate I believe you know Auschwitz already very well you know how the train in Birkenau how the train entered under the   big door let's call it big gate   goes inside   and we were still not knowing where we

[40:30] are most of them they were sleeping ja sleeping standing can can you imagine we could not sit down afterwards [coughs]   wild   cries »get out ! you beasts !« and every kind of bad words uh come out and hard knockings on the door as if we could open the door

[40:57] but you could not open it

[40:59] hm

[41:01] someone had to open it   the doors open and we have to jump everyone down   the cries   the place   I could see   it was very it was night it was electrical light open but   it was a very awful place it was a place where all crematories of Auschwitz were

[41:33] around you know the ramp of the Auschwitz and left and in the background and also to the right place I don't remember there were the crematories   you could see flames coming out from those buildings   uh you started thinking that you have arrived in a place

[41:54] where hell was many cries everyone wanted to make some kind of an order   there were beatings   there were all a lot of SS around the train   the German responsible for our wagon   understood ver- f- very very fast that his orders were not understood he spoke

[42:26] German »make rows make that make that make that« he he understood that the people don't understand it why ? because they were all from Baron Hirsch Baron Hirsch had people that did not go to school   they were all hard-working good people but they didn't speak

[42:45] languages   they were fishers they were labourers those famous transporters you know where they put a lot of weight [gesticulates] on their back they put them on the third floor et cetera and then he said »who speaks German ?« to make one step forward and

[43:07] that was my salvation only my family made one step forward and were baptised immediately and he says »you will become the Dolmetschers for all the duration that Greek transports come«  

[43:22] and that was for about six months that Greek transports start were

[43:30] coming one after the other to Germany   that helped us a lot because it gave us a little more food than the others   of course we started saying what the officer SS officer was commanding us he was a very thick officer   he was very tall he was very arrogant

[44:00] and he had a small Peitsche how you call ? l- like those riders on horses and he always did this [gesticulates] with his Peitsche he   on his feet and he he wore those long boots the black boots   and he gave some commands   make rows and he started   to make

[44:30] his [waving hand from left to right] hands like that and to give us orders »tell them to go either left or right either left or right those on the right   you go this place and you board those   big lorries because you are going to be transported to your last

[44:49] place   and you you stay here and make rows   of ten   like uh like an army« so we did it   and that was our job our main job every time a Greek transport came was coming and that was what salvaged u- our family the first most important months to be salvaged

[45:25] because we as I call it we fell a little soft   we had a job to do for the German army for the German SS and we had to do it at night so we had they had to keep us alive until they would see what they would do with us afterwards so we- we're brought to the

[45:48] Ef- to the Effektenkammer   they took us all the clothes as they were taking from German soldiers that were transferred to I don't know where and they put them and they hang them in a big room where many hundreds of hanging clothes (were) but they were they

[46:09] hanged them and they put them very well there and they gave us other Häftlings   clothes to wear it was summer in a way summer and we wore the summer clothes and the drill cloth of the camp   which was actually clean   it was clean it was not uh very very with

[46:40] with holes at least that what we received and become Dolmetschers we had to return back again to the railroad to give further translations wherever they were needed and for continuously afterwards for several months we did the same thing every time a Greek

[47:00] transport came and we were saved by that

[47:04] why ? because after the selection of the transports there came special commandos commandos of workers to clean the place we always found something to eat in the floor of the wagons   so we had food to eat so that was

[47:25] a better treatment than the other ones the other ones had to work without food or with very little food and we had to work with very little food but we received food in the night and that was very important   and I believe that's also the reason why we have

[47:45] been saved afterwards because we learned how to live in the camp if you knew how to live you had chances to live if you kept little you had chances to live and due to our work we were not selected for something else in the meantime we learned how to live and

[48:08] we knew already how to get hidden afterwards   but we passed a Häftlings- -day but we had also shelter because they put us on the tailor sh- on the tailor there was a commando of tailoring tailoring what ? the clothing that were collected they made them bundles

[48:32] we made them bundles afterwards we repaired them provisory very provisory and then they were sent to the inside of Germany to be given to people that were bombarded   sometimes we found food we ate sometimes we did not found food but we were in ev- every

[48:52] Greek transport there was food and those seven months we were actually treated as Häftlinge as prisoners that they were needed   of course this ended one day and then we started living like all the others but still we had already acquired knowledge how to

[49:14] live in the camp and how not to speak of fo- not to speak and to forget your past and see only the future and how to do something that might save you from any maltreatment that was one chance that we have been saved there were many other chances also but that

[49:36] was one of the very first chance

[49:38] so just to get it right you you had to go to the ramp in Birkenau every time a transport from Greece   came

[49:47] [simultaneously:] every night that the Greek transport came the last transport came from Athens and that was already six months after

[49:53] so you are in a way a witness to all uhm the Greek uhm deportees in in   that came to Birkenau

[50:01] [nodding:] yes yes and how they were separated and how were they and everything and my job was only to to convey whatever orders the Germans gave me to translate it to Greek »do not speak hear what they say to you stay calm to live you will find everyone

[50:20] that you are losing« we had to we had to say something to them uh because everyone asked »where are my wife ? where is my children ? where is everything ?« those that they didn't want to keep the- they didn't want to be separated they just tell them go over

[50:37] there they they did not select them that was so easy   so they immediately thought they would go like luxurious travellers because there were lorries that transported them from the one corner of the camp where there was the selection to the other corner

[50:53] that was the crematory just a few hundred metres away   and from the crematoria was a black you know from the chimney came out a black   a a bl- black it was very black the smoke probably because it was burning human bodies I don't know why but it was a very

[51:12] black smoke and also immediately on the Schornstein on the chimney at the top of the chimney there was about   I would say from far away I thought it was about forty centimetres of fire and then was black smoke

[51:27] hm uhm

[51:30] and it was running like that [gesticulates] like a serpent and going up to the skies   that was that that was human flesh that was burning and then it started the whole atmosphere although the day we arrived there were no clouds nothing was e- a ve- a nice

[51:49] Auschwitz day of the winter it was not summer yet it wa- it was raining and what was raining ? it was the flakes flakes of ashes you just took it that rain and it dissolved in your hands it was a flake of smoke   it was the souls of all those people that went

[52:13] up to the skies   that was my first impression of Auschwitz and I had to have it

[52:20] [interrupting:] (____) sorry

[52:22] and I have to have had it several times until the Greek transports stopped after the Greek transports stopped I was already in the tailor Kommando and I stayed all the time in the tailor Kommando

[52:34] hm uhm

[52:36] and that saved our lives why ? because we have had a cover on our head we whenever it rained we did not get wet whenever it blew hard wind we were under a building   we didn't have much to eat but when there was a transport we found something to eat   afterwards

[53:03] we didn't found so we be- we became also leaner and leaner and leaner until we are finally transported to another camp

[53:11] you uh were together with your father or with the f- with the

[53:16] [interrupting:] I was together with my father all the time not even in Auschwitz but also I tried an- we and we were together in the other camps

[53:26] but not with your sister and your mother

[53:29] not with (se-) my sister and my mother were kommandiert were commanded to go to the Politsche Abteilung their job was to write the cards of all of all the Häftlinge of all the prisoners because they knew several languages   so all the time they were in Auschwitz

[53:51] they were there they had a gate covered from everything from the ba- from bad winter from the weather and from the rain and they were saved also and because they were working with the SS every time they were also in a very clean   uh e- environment I mean they

[54:13] had to be very clean in their clothing and et cetera  

[54:16] but our tailor   working place   in Auschwitz   it was the number one block of Auschwitz not of Birkenau I was not in Birkenau if I was in Birkenau I don't know if I would be saved uh but to guard us they

[54:42] put us under cover   the window the first window of a block   what it looked on the right side which was painted white was already the   barbed wire of the camp and outside this were three big buildings one of them was where my mother and my sister worked

[55:18] the other one was for the SS guards and the other one was for the Kommando of Auschwitz where everything of the Kommand- of all Kommandos I mean who gave orders were there   from the window I could see the window where my mother worked   it was not allowed to

[55:42] open it but sometimes you know you can you can find ways and I could see them and they could see us when we went out in the Appell   so life continued   because we   I would say we were in a good uh hygenical standing of the body we passed several   all of

[56:16] the selections that were made in Auschwitz and we passed seven selections not only one or two seven selections had passed in Auschwitz and I my father always passed the selections and my father had his l- right or left foot I don't remember which one two centimetres

[56:38] to three centimetres shorter than the other one and when he walked he had very high heels and when he couldn't find the high heels he had to have his feet like that [showing how with hand] not to stand otherwise he had to be like [leaning towards one side]

[56:52] that   so he you can imagine him all the time he had to when he was before an SS man and he had to go aside to let them pass and take Mützen ab und Mützen auf to make it like that he was always trying to s- to stay rigid and strai- straight not to show that

[57:17] he was shorter   and he passed all selection with me   how is it possible   not for me and for my father to believe that a God exists here not possible we just believed yes there is a God   because we passed ! I was lean   but probably others were leaner

[57:46] than me I don't know   when the very big selection was done ver- the biggest of all that I escaped and I escaped it because the biggest selection was done in the- in September of 1944  

[58:05] a- immediately after the bombardment   another comedy   another comedy

[58:16] done by the SS administration we were bombarded   we worked   when the beauti- the beautiful I would say the very high houses of uh light industry were built in Auschwitz in one of those buildings there were the Kommando of Schneiderei   the Kommando of Schusterei  

[58:45] and other Kommandos that had to do with shoes with clothing and everything that has to be done that has to be with clothing the whole building and with shoes separating shoes selecting shoes and all this thing it was a very high building and every floor did

[59:08] something else and we were working on the fourth floor of this building   and   when we had had our first bombardment which was done by the American army for the first time when the Americans had reached alread- already above Rome they were how you call this

[59:33] place now Rimini Rimini it was called I I don't remember how no they were already in Milano their thei- the American uh flyers and the air planes were quite short now to bombard those Auschwitz and that was the first bombardment   of Auschwitz made and that

[59:56] was also the reason why probably Auschwitz was not bombed before   I believe it was not bombed before but the distance was not enough that the plane should return intact   probably because when they arrived near   near Milano let us say they started the first

[1:00:15] bombing of Auschwitz   it was one bombing was enough uh because when they bombed they were very well informed they bombed all the SS Kaserns but one bomb fell on that big building   we were working at that moment it (w-) during the day I remember we were walking

[1:00:37] when the sirens started so whenever the sirens started we have to we had to go down on the basement we started going on the basement we were running from the upper floors down and on the fourth floor or something the bomb fell and one bomb fell directly on

[1:00:55] the building which the building just opened like that probably it was badly made and I was found from the fourth floor standing in a large rubble of stones   all alone ! just on the top of it I was standing and my feet up to here were inside that rubble but

[1:01:20] I could move my feet I knew that if I tried to just push a little stones I would take them out I said »where am I ?« just a brown thing was all around me at the first moment I didn't see anything and then my eyes started looking and start to see wher- where

[1:01:40] I'm standing on a r- on a small mountain of rubbles »where's my father ?« and then I heard a voice and that was my father's voice it was very faint but it was my name   it was about five six metres away from me uh   and I said »it's my father« and I tried

[1:02:00] to take off my feet and went there and took off stones other people of uh like me who were Häftlinge they came to help me and we took out my father just pushing him out like that for the big hole and he was he was alright he had big wounds on here here and

[1:02:28] on on his head [gesticulates] but he could walk   he was in a in a tremor he was in a shock we put him out there outside the big rubble and just put him down and he started to become   to s- to see for himself and at that moment what do we see ?   what do we see ?

[1:02:50] the Kommando of my mother   and my sister coming from the Politische Abteilung which was outside our   Lager it was outside the Auschwitz camp and where we worked was outside the camp uh it was the the it was the big perimeter of the of Auschwitz Lager and they

[1:03:11] were going back to their own   Lager because a bombardment and when she passed there she saw me w- she she was perhaps a hundred metres away and she left her Kommando and the guardian left her he allowed her he did not do anything and came to us and she saw

[1:03:37] me standing and my father already on the pavement  

[1:03:44] and then they collected her again they went to their own place and my father I was alright I (accompanied) him he was tran- transferred to the hospital block number twenty- twenty- twenty- twenty- 27 perhaps  

[1:04:01] n- n- j- n- ja- there were four four blocks that were hospital where he was under   medi- medical uh people to repair him to to make him (__) [gesticulates] because the SS afterwards took immediately a decision they will make a showplace of Auschwitz bombard  

[1:04:26] so they took care of all those that they were bombed they took care of my father they put him on the hospital   I now I'm speaking a few days immediately the immediate days after the bombardment and they took care th- th- the they all b- b- bombed they should

[1:04:48] be taken care why ? because they called the International Red Cross   from Switzerland to come and visit and see how the SS cares for those that they were bombed and there came a special commission after three days came a special commission from International

[1:05:04] Cross to see how the SS cared and they make a very nice report out of it   why ? because (they saw so) my father he was cared uh   but   a prisoner knew very very very very well   don't stay in the hospital   because if a Häftling went to the hospital it was

[1:05:31] finished [clapping hands] he will not survive especially if if he is a Jew the hospital were for the SS and for the Prominenten it was not for the Jews they trea- treated him well for the first five days I went to see him   there were allowed visits and one

[1:05:51] night I went to see him and he said »I have registered today to go out tomorrow   I don't want to stay here and I told the doctors« he said »and they didn't want to allow me because I was under shock and I was wi- with a ba- no !« he said »I want to go

[1:06:12] out !« because I told you before it was a big madness to go to the hospital hospital was in the night you go to the crematory   and actually next morning came a commission of the S- International commission of the Red Cross accompanied by officers of the Auschwitz

[1:06:31] and they wanted the Auschwitz officers to show them how well they treat people and visited those that were treated   together with my father and the doctor said »this man is going out tomorrow« and they gave congratulations to the doctor how well they treated

[1:06:54] the people   ironical yeah   anyhow   I was there the next day by my father and he said to me »I'm going out tomorrow I don't want to live I don't want to stay not even a moment« because as I told before a Häftling does not stay in the hospital   and actually

[1:07:14] that's what happened next morning general P- as immediately as the commission   went back the Red Cross to of uh Switzerland next day general appeal general Appell   first thing of the Appell was a big selection which was also extended to in the hospital   all

[1:07:42] those that did not go out next day morning were collected and sent together with those selected the same night   sent to the crematory gas chambers I was e- exempted because I was I ha- my father and because the Appell   the time of the return   had already uh

[1:08:07] how do you call it the bell had already (sung)   I said »I must now go back to   my block« I was already late   and   I was saved from the selection I did not pass the selection because when I went back to my block   trying not be seen walking on the streets

[1:08:42] of the Auschwitz   was always on the outside on the shadow [sound interference] when I reach my block there was a big selection they selected everyone   and from the hospital they selected all those that were wounded except those that had already   that they

[1:09:04] were already in order to be released the next day and my father had the order to be released the next day because he had asked about that   can you imagine ? that's one of the wonders why I was saved I have had seven wonders   I passed seven sel- I passed five

[1:09:26] selections uh seven selections   altogether and I passed also afterwards in anoth- in another camp they were going to shoot me and I was saved again   to make a short story   after this bombardment my father goes back to his work   thanks God again to the

[1:09:52] Schneiderei Kommando and I stayed also in Schneiderei Kommando   we still existed that famous order »they are Greeks they speak English they are translators« probably I I suppose so otherwise I don't explain it  

[1:10:11] and the time comes that we must be transferred

[1:10:15] to other Komman- to another to another concentration camp because the Russians were coming   so they have had to empty the camp   and now comes the very long march   the very very long march   the unforgettable you must have heard about that   certainly   but

[1:10:44] about   we arrived thri- 3000 and we went away I don't remember how many thousand people   30000 or something like that   people from Auschwitz   and we   arrived in first in Mauthausen from Mauthausen we go to Melk   Melk was a very hard camp but it not have

[1:11:19] selections and such things those that could not work they were just killed we were working in the mountains   building tunnels to make spare parts for the aviation industry   for the Messerschmitts   and they had also Ebensee where they built the same thing so

[1:11:40] we were transferred to Ebensee the work was very hard it was the most hard work I have I have done in Germany   for two two three months   and there I was also liberated   I have something to tell you about Ebensee   when we arrived   when we started

[1:12:18] our trip from Melk so we have Mauthausen Mauthausen Melk   hard work tunnels et cetera then Ebensee why ? because the Russians were coming   on the other side the Americans were coming so we're just in the Tyrol between two big armies fighting still [laughing:]

[1:12:40] in Germany   so working there very hard  

[1:12:49] we arrived in the Ebensee camp   during   the transport from Melk to Ebensee our train is mounting   some kind of small hill   you could see that it had slowed a lot (its) speed   in my wagon there were all Russians   very

[1:13:19]   good looking and very hard looking   men   and there were in each wagon two guards both sitting in the open sliding door one in one corner the other other corner and in the wideness of the door there was done a corridor   where those that were in the wagon

[1:13:52] inside could not go the corridor was [gesticulates] one door here sliding one door here sliding here people and here people and this was the corridor and that's the big wagon ja   we had no right to go in the corridor we had to stay on this way and this way

[1:14:14] the Russians prisoners started singing you know the Russians they have a wonderful voice uh most of them   most of them and they have very beautiful songs   »Balalaika« and I don't remember the other songs Vol- »Volga Volga« and they started singing those

[1:14:36] beautiful songs they're very lyrical and click clack click clack the train was going we started   standing there standing sleeping again we already accustomed on that   all in a sudden it was about thre- three hour o'clock we hear shout- we har- we hear how

[1:14:59] you call shootings inside the wagon   they were shooting at us the guards were shooting at us they were shooting half standing and st- an- uh uh crying »lie down lie down everyone lie down«   and we see both doors open   the Russians with us singing   they made

[1:15:25] a small hole on the back door on the back sliding door through which with the uh the metal that uh   of a file

[1:15:36] uhm hm

[1:15:38] they just pushed it was uh something like that that was done like that you know they push it up singing loudly they just opened slightly the door and they star- -ted springing   it was mounting a hill uh it was no more than perhaps eight ten kilometres per

[1:15:58] hour uh and the the SS guards had not seen that probably they were half as- half a- as- asleep and they saw it only when it started to become empty   so they started shouting »lie down lie down« in the meantime 21 Russians had escaped   the train did not stop  

[1:16:20] in the morning we arrive at Ebensee and now the arrival of Ebensee  

[1:16:26] when we arrived in Ebensee it was very early in the morning and it was very beautiful you know hard cold   very clear very beautiful scenery Eben- Ebensee is in a very beautiful place and

[1:16:47] one mountain about one and a half mile from Ebensee was the right mountain the sides of a mountain to be drilled to become camp and there we drilled afterwards Tunnels to become camp but still we were on the railroad   we arrive there   and everyone should

[1:17:11] form before his wagons everyone should stay there and be again once again counted   counted to make the report of arrival to the commandant of the camp and we were standing in our place in our wagon before and we were less 21 people   the SS commandant of the

[1:17:34] train was wütend he was very angry he wanted to shoot us all then he changed his decision and he said »I will choose 21 of you« and he starts selection you know how they do the selection »you you you you you you« arrogant again   you know how is an SS

[1:17:56] man his hat had like that always very high although there were also very low SS men (you thought) why they are (living) and they had the face of Jews anyhow big nose and things like that as the Aryans said anyhow   he started choosing and he chose about

[1:18:20]   it was only 18th and I said myself »so many months I am with my father now should be separated« I did not realise why he's choosing I was stupid uh cause I knew laws of the camp and I said to him »may I go with him ?« »go !«   and I went with him with

[1:18:44] my father and then he grouped us he left all the others to be entered to the camp and he took us he gave order »take them to   a place in the woods and shoot them   but wait orders« now what happens ? they were already we were already hearing cannons cannons

[1:19:14] were heard although they were thirty kilometres away you could hear them very well in the in the woods uh   we were hearing them   and uh   we were waiting in that opening of the wood for about seven hours   there was a group of SS men all with uh not rev- revolvers

[1:19:42] with the other with have many many bullets how you call them ?   ready to shoot us and we're waiting probably that's what came out afterwards the officer that commanded our shooting had to take the commandant of the camp   permission because the railroad station

[1:20:06] was under the Ebensee commandant jurisdiction so he went to him   and he said to him »I don't accept shootings in my place no   finish shootings   bring them back here«   we didn't know all the story of course uh and we're waiting and it was a group of five

[1:20:29] SS men that were surrounding us with mit rif- mit rif- how you call them ?   and they were joking with us   how ?   they made a perimeter all around us like that and they said »whoever moves outside the perimeter will be shot«   now how to create movement   they

[1:20:57] were smoking   smoking was paradise present uh

[1:21:01] huh

[1:21:03] for the prisoners they all smokers they looked like that how how to get the cigarettes they started not only smoking but they started taking the cigarette in the hand and making like that to see how far it will go and how near in the circle will it be   and

[1:21:22] all those that were about five ten centimetres from the circle you could not you c- you could not reach them with your hands if you didn't make a step for- out the circle   so those that tried to circle they were ready to shoot them they tried once and th-

[1:21:39] they were very afraid to come out   so they tried to get the cigarette and they could not get so they were playing with uh to make life even harder although we were nearly finished in the war   to make a short story   after five hours comes a motorcycle this

[1:22:02] German motorcycles with the   they all were double you know   and the driver he looked at us from far away and he laughed us he laughed   but it was a kind laugh as if he wanted to give us some courage and actually he gave us courage because he gives an order

[1:22:25] he said »bring them back to the camp«   what happened ? they took us they bring us back to the camp   opens the big electrified gate not even writing our names not nothing they push us inside and they close the gate   we immediately following the rules

[1:22:45] and the laws of the camp tried to disperse they didn't even had taken the numbers uh so you know to search us afterwards and we said »disperse now not to find us«   we disperse in the camp for the first time that the   Ordnungs- of the German Ordnungs- let's

[1:23:05] say did not work anymore we dispersed in the camp and we learned our story afterwards and we registered next morning in the central square it didn't last much   and we learned afterwards that the the commandant of the camp did not approve the shooting either

[1:23:34] he said »enough of shootings now it's time to save ourselves and not to shoot«   it was nearly the end of the war   about 17   about   18 days after we were free uh   he   left us there alive and we were liberated in Ebensee Ebensee was a very very very

[1:24:11] very very very hard camp   when I say very very hard camp the work was the same we had every morning to go in three shifts to the tunnels and bore holes put dynamite   inside go back where we worked where we (bored) the hole in another tunnel that was in

[1:24:38] the side and they put it in fire this and they threw down large part of the tunnel that was the opening of the tunnel   it was very hard work I remember of this work I could not lift the big drill   only the drill had seven metres   the machine the the boring

[1:25:03] machine lifted at least three four people should have put it on the stand uh so we only had to push it drilling and pushing inside the big hole then they took it off put the dynamite and (they) sprang  

[1:25:19] to make tha- that story short   we were freed in Ebensee

[1:25:26] after the 19 twenty days   a month I don't remember now exactly the dates and we were liberated one day after the official peace was pronounced and the the end of the war was pronounced in Europe one day after we were liberated we're the very last ones without

[1:25:53] having troops that came to liberate us   it was only a patrol   it was Sunday morning I could not move   I was very weak if you see the picture you will be surprised how how I lived   37 38 kilograms was my weight   all the bones just like that [gesticulates]

[1:26:17] and we heard that the Americans are coming they would certainly come and all in a sudden   we had wooden   uh small towers wooden where one SS guard was guarding all around the perimeter of the camp they were now boarded by people that had red civilians that

[1:26:46] had a red band and the SS had disappeared   they were people probably from the town   we realised that the time has come   actually it was   don't remember if it was a Sunday but for me it was a holiday   we hear people marching I was in the barracks and I could

[1:27:13] not move we didn't have uh even a   have beds we just slept on the floor   and I could not move and I hear people going that were f-   more forceful than me to the centre of the place of the camp I said »where are you going ?» »the Americans are coming« »take

[1:27:36] me with you ! I don't want to stay here I want to see them« and they carried me help me to carry to the centre of the square and actually we see an American in a Sherman tank there were no more SS the civilians that were up around the   around the around the

[1:27:57] perimeter of the camp on the guarding house there they disappeared   and we see an American Sherman tank and uh one lorry about twenty people were inside and one jeep   the American tank bump the door close the door down they go over the door come inside

[1:28:22] comes out from the the camp tried to come tried to come out a big American officer he was very big that was my first impression and I said to myself »my God how is he going to come out out of this it's not possible« and he was laughing and he said »are

[1:28:41] there any Greeks ?«   he was f- fr- he was from Greece [laughter]   there were several Greeks (well you shall hear it again)   and and I said »I am Greek« »now you are free« he said »I am from Peloponnes I am from this place« »and who are you« I said  

[1:29:08] stupidly [laughs]   »you will be officially get now very soon I'm telephoning« and he said »there will come a special medical committee and will take care of you   don't go away from here stay here as you are you will hear from us soon«   and he turns goes

[1:29:30] out and that was all and we're free   after a few hours were like that   in the meantime people started coming that especially Russians they were very strong   they started to go down the mountain of our camp because we were in a mountain a small mountain

[1:29:48] I to go down to go to the town of Ebensee and find some food and things like that   and that's how my story has finished   and that was the way I was freed   there I lost   in the camps I lost 24 people from my near family my wife lost 23   a lesson has been

[1:30:16] learned   what should we think afterwards I don't know   this is part of my story   I can tell you and keep you here many days

[1:30:30] uhm hm

[1:30:33] to hear about Auschwitz but it's too much afterwards   but this is how I lived that that's why I'm writing my book I've written the book which has the title »I Lived That«

[1:30:46] you lived that yes your sister told us that immediately after the liberation your father had the chance to get a camera to make pictures ?

[1:30:59] ya ya but I could not move as I told you but my father could move and he we were perhaps the very very few I would say people that could still move let's say my father could move not only move but that spoke English

[1:31:17] yeah

[1:31:34] it was very important because when the American troops came   and made this command and and gave u- gave us order to move there will come also other Americans et cetera et cetera they ask »who speaks English ? and we need someone to come with us and if he speaks

[1:31:38] Greek and other languages to help us sort things of those prisoners that we are liberate to explain to them« and my father said »I speak and my son speak« but I could not move so I stayed there and he went together with them you will see most on the photos

[1:31:59] here I have some photos   who went with the Americans in the various camps of near Ebensee and other they were all small camps like Ebensee   and he explained to the Americans he has (even in some of) his photos he has one one box of the gift box and also some

[1:32:15] ashes and things like that   and he made pictures of the many lorries that there were there how full of all those bodies all the bodies that are already finished

[1:32:27] uhm hm

[1:32:30] with the bones (sticking) out they were very thin when I wa- I was only 37 kilograms I was one metre sixty (_) nearly very high   and that was how we're f- how we were freed   of course he the commander of our camp he was arrested immediately but because he

[1:32:52] has not shot us   he had something to uh to make lighter his sentence and he was not imprisoned   he was one of those that was not imprisoned although he was a commander that was not uh a very good man uh who Kommando of a camp was a good man either by force

[1:33:19] or not he was not anymore   that was how how we are freed and a long story made short   that's a very very long story to say it everything

[1:33:31] yeah

[1:33:33] you cannot say it everything   you have to read more  

[1:33:36] yeah

[1:33:38] you said that you kept a diary during or after the war ?

[1:33:44] [simultaneously:] yes I kept a diary yes [reaches for a copy of his book] (so) are here I have the English book here but the English book has not much it has not the pictures

[1:33:55] has not the pictures uhu

[1:33:57] it has very few pictures the Greek book has all the pictures the pictures that this book has th- tha- there that are important I will give it to you   it is a big table here with the Jewish population on Greece necessary for you   some photographs these are

[1:34:19] the tickets

[1:34:21] would you show it uhm to the camera ?

[1:34:23] [shows the photographs he is describing] these here are the tickets issued by the Greek railroads for the German authorities the Greek railroad had to use tickets   in order to balance their economics uh they are issued these tickets were given to the train

[1:34:38] commander to each train commander the train commander just stamped them bound them and delivered this to go together with the document of his report to the commandant of Auschwitz the commandant of Auschwitz did not know what to do with them   with the tickets

[1:34:55] and they put all the tickets they did not destroy them they put them in the basement   so that's why there were found the tickets

[1:35:04] I see I see

[1:35:06] yes ? this is these are pictures of (ath-) those people that were anapiri (you) call the invalids

[1:35:14] yes prosthetics

[1:35:16] invalids of the war yes   this is a picture of the crematorium of Ebensee

[1:35:21] uhu

[1:35:23] uhm hm

[1:35:24] this is Ebensee picture it's Ebensee   and this here is myself uh

[1:35:27] [gasps]

[1:35:30] this is how I were looking but I was still standing uh

[1:35:35] [sighs]

[1:35:38] you can see my bones I was nearly   I don't think I could live a very few few days more

[1:35:43] hm

[1:35:45] hm

[1:35:47] it was impossible no

[1:35:49] hm

[1:35:51] here you see already the people here in the crematorium how we were dressed here you see

[1:35:54] yeah

[1:35:56] hm

[1:36:00] only with a blanket

[1:36:03] yeah

[1:36:08] hm

[1:36:09] we didn't have anything   we were already Muselmanns we were

[1:36:11] yeah

[1:36:12] called you know who were called Muselmanns here is myself twenty days after  

[1:36:14] uhu   uh twenty days ? so

[1:36:17] twenty days

[1:36:18] you were recovered a little bit maybe

[1:36:20] so much

[1:36:21] maybe

[1:36:22] I believe I recovered a lot

[1:36:24] yeah

[1:36:25] and this is this is something the the SS in the in the woods

[1:36:27] yeah

[1:36:28] in the woods of Ebensee

[1:36:29] yeah

[1:36:31] this is a picture of my father mother and the family   how we were at that time even much younger (we were) very young here

[1:36:39] and with your sister

[1:36:41] very happy family with my sister

[1:36:42] hm

[1:36:44] this is my wedding day here

[1:36:45] uhu

[1:36:47] my wedding day

[1:36:48] when did you marry ?

[1:36:49] in 1950 uh   now you blocked me [laughs]

[1:36:53] [laughs] I'm sorry   I didn't intend to

[1:36:55] in 1953 [laughs] that's me now

[1:37:00] and and and you mentioned your uh wife lost also a lot of relatives so she's also a survivor you-

[1:37:09] yes

[1:37:10] your wife

[1:37:12] yes yes   she has not many relatives who survived no   she has not she she has has many that have died

[1:37:19] lost lost lost yes that's what I mean meant

[1:37:22] she has one more than my family

[1:37:23] yes yes I lost I mean I meant that yes

[1:37:25] who did not survive

[1:37:27] in which camp

[1:37:29] [simultaneously:] and here you have something that's also important I thought it was important w- was an SS glossary

[1:37:34] yes

[1:37:36] the glossary of the camps

[1:37:37] yes

[1:37:38] not only the SS but the glossary of the camps

[1:37:40] yes

[1:37:41] hm

[1:37:44] hm

[1:37:45] like many German words ?

[1:37:47] yes

[1:37:48] yeah

[1:37:49] yes the the let's say the argot of the camp

[1:37:51] yeah

[1:37:54] yeah

[1:37:57] Muselmanns

[1:37:59] yeah

[1:38:00] wha- wha- what's a Muselmann ? why

[1:38:01] yeah

[1:38:02] yeah

[1:38:03] why they call them Muselmann I don't know

[1:38:05] hm

[1:38:06] yeah

[1:38:07] there might be some explanation but Muselmanns were called those that their bones already

[1:38:09] yeah

[1:38:10] outside and there are people that only did not look at you th- they looked straight but they did not look (you) anymore

[1:38:11] okay

[1:38:13] they just moved straight like that they were Mu-

[1:38:14] hm

[1:38:16] and there are those that they are going to die next day

[1:38:17] uhm hm

[1:38:18] and you call them Muselmanns   they had lost I I say that they had lost all desire to live finished they had said »I don't go further«

[1:38:20] uhm hm

[1:38:22] and next day you found them down there  

[1:38:24] when you when when you and your   father went back to Salon- Saloniki

[1:38:36] we went immediately to the shop

[1:38:37] and did you show the pictures or did your father show the pictures of Ebensee to other people here in Saloniki or

[1:38:45] well I don't have such a picture but probably Erika might have I don't know

[1:38:49] uhm hm

[1:38:51] but we told our story immediately

[1:38:52] yeah

[1:38:54] we didn't keep anything !

[1:38:58] and how did people react

[1:38:59] but people did not ask us to do it they did not want to hear it and only after 1980 when I started writing my book   I said »enough« they have to hear the story

[1:39:12] yeah

[1:39:13] they did not want to hear the story and th- I mean not only people did not want to hear it people that came back did not want to tell the story ! perhaps they were ashamed ashamed of what ? I would say they were ashamed because they were captured

[1:39:29] hm

[1:39:30] they didn't have any other reason to be ashamed

[1:39:31] but you spoke about it

[1:39:34] always

[1:39:36] always

[1:39:37] always

[1:39:38] uhm hm

[1:39:40] always and I and I speak always and I speak before even your prime minister I have spoken in Berlin

[1:39:43] uhm hm

[1:39:45] some years ago I told him my story  

[1:39:47] yeah

[1:39:49] I was never afraid to speak about my story

[1:39:53] yeah

[1:39:55] never

[1:39:56] that's good

[1:39:58] I am very happy that I was saved proud I'm not

[1:39:59] hm

[1:40:01] but it I was not in (an age) year where I could decide if I would go or not go uh so I said at least there I'm I'm innocent [laughs]

[1:40:09] uhm what happened to your house when you came back to Salonika ?

[1:40:15] well my house was uh standing quite alright it was confiscated by the German authorities   and was made a cantine of the Germans

[1:40:24] cantine

[1:40:26] the German army yes upstairs there were the sleeping rooms were some officers living upstairs we had four rooms yes one two three four rooms and the bathroom and downstairs were the big room of uh eating room and sitting room it was a very nice house and uh

[1:40:45] the house we found it okay all the uh   how do you call this Möbel

[1:40:53] furniture

[1:40:54] furniture

[1:40:55] furniture we found them back not in the house because be- before we left Salonika we had already given the furniture to neighbours and every neighbour gave it back to us even some some of those that we gave them merchandise small merchandise that we gave them

[1:41:15] we get it all back   I remember we had given to some good friend of us and he hide for us and he gave them back to us immediately we came about sixty pieces of light metres that was the time when the light metres first came out separate light metres that were

[1:41:34] not on the camera   the first thing he said gave back light metres   all the merchandise we haved and we haved many a lot of merchandise a lot of merchandise was distributed during the after we left   to the club the club to the organisation that were all

[1:41:57] the photographers of northern Greece members

[1:41:59] uh huh

[1:42:01] and they received through the German Kommandatur   they either went there to ask it or they were received free I I don't know how they did it but it came to their hands and was distributed to the photographers   of course we d- never received any restitution

[1:42:18] of that but we found several still that had some merchandise uh fifty packets of this paper ten packets of that that was returned immediately I remember we went to the police when we came back because we had imported at that time an important furniture for

[1:42:38] the photographic's shop artist's shops was the camera the camera was made out of wood you know it was a big wooden camera it was high as a man and it had in front of it a very nice lens but not this type of lens we have now uh a big lens and uh it did not

[1:43:00] have any diaphragm but the diaphragm was the cover of the lens and the photographer just put out the cover and then put it back it was the time that needed the paper print the paper negative and we were the importers of the negative before the war and we continued

[1:43:19] to be after the war it was the German firm Leonar Werke

[1:43:23] uh huh

[1:43:25] which was in Hamburg a small factory that produced this special paper for the (moving) photographer that had the big camera and was on the on the streets

[1:43:35] yeah

[1:43:37] the street photographer   and we received back this day immediately walked with us when we- when they learned that we came back

[1:43:46] hm

[1:43:48] and I remember very well the representation of these uh people who we were was has gone to a Christian who was not uh who asked for it directly by writing to the manufacturer

[1:44:03] yeah

[1:44:06] we have another (representative) »now give it to me« and he gave it of course but immediately when we returned the manufacturer gave it back immediate- representation the representation to us

[1:44:16] hm

[1:44:18] both Leonar both Perutz et cetera

[1:44:20] uh yeah

[1:44:23] they were very correct

[1:44:24] hm

[1:44:26] they were very correct so we had the first things to work with and was this representation we had Leonar Werke and Perutz who gave us immediately merchandise because their factories were not damaged   and they started working the one was in Hamburg and the

[1:44:43] other was in München

[1:44:45] and you were the first to come back to Thessaloniki and then later your sister an-

[1:44:52] not absolutely the first we were on the middle on the middle ones but they all came together back uh

[1:44:58] yeah

[1:45:01] they all came back together back   many of them did not come back and many of them ca- went directly to America and other places  

[1:45:09] and you have been very active in the Jewish community uhm

[1:45:14] yes

[1:45:16] for fity or sixty years now

[1:45:18] I am several years 19- from uh 19- yes several years and my father was before

[1:45:21] and you told us there is only one synagogue uhm left in in Salonika

[1:45:28] ya the only synagogue that was left was one yes the one that there still there and th- and (two v-) one very small but was not a synagogue was just

[1:45:43] and your father was active

[1:45:45] [interrupting:] the big synagogue was exploded by the Germans immediately when the- when they came here they exploded the synagogue I mean after one year they exploded the whole synagogue  

[1:45:58] uhm   your father was also active in the community also before th-

[1:46:05] [interrupting:] he was also active yes he was in the beginning very active

[1:46:08] before the war also or af-

[1:46:10] no no after the war

[1:46:13] after the war

[1:46:15] not before he was immediately the representative of those hostages that came back

[1:46:17] uhu

[1:46:19] in the community of Salonika

[1:46:21] uhu

[1:46:23] they made a party

[1:46:25] yeah

[1:46:27] party made two three parties

[1:46:29] yes

[1:46:32] and one of them was the party of those that came back

[1:46:35] ah yeah okay

[1:46:38] this way entered in the assembly of the community as I was now his follower

[1:46:41] and the family uhm   was as your sister told us yesterday was not too religious but just had the

[1:46:47] no I wouldn't say that we were religious we kept everything

[1:46:52] yeah

[1:46:54] but religious certainly we were not much   I mean religious with the hat and praying all the day and things like that no

[1:47:01] and did you eat kosher at at home ? or

[1:47:04] yes we- we ate kosher at home kosher was kept at home

[1:47:07] uhu

[1:47:09] yes

[1:47:12] and another question was about language uhm so uhm did you   learn Spa- Spanish Spanioli or Ladino ?

[1:47:24] I did not learn Spanish like Erika also we did not learn Spanish but we understood so well the Spanish that we think that we can speak it also but we don't speak it

[1:47:34] uhu

[1:47:36] okay

[1:47:38] so that's

[1:47:40] I don't speak it but I know many Spanish words I believe it's not difficult for me to speak it

[1:47:44] yeah

[1:47:46] I did not need to speak it

[1:47:48] hm

[1:47:50] unfortunately I I regret the fact that I do not speak it  

[1:47:54] maybe another question uhm   if your father was uh owner of a photographic uhm shop did he take a lot of pictures also of the larger family of of of the of his cousins

[1:48:13] he took he took he took but nothing was saved uh

[1:48:16] nothing was saved ?

[1:48:18] no

[1:48:20] okay so even

[1:48:22] very very little

[1:48:24] not so okay

[1:48:26] pictures of our previous family of our father's family (and these) they are very small

[1:48:28] very small

[1:48:32] very small

[1:48:33] hm

[1:48:35] there are those that you can see there

[1:48:36] that's a-

[1:48:38] mostly there

[1:48:39] that's the narrow family

[1:48:40] yes

[1:48:42] okay

[1:48:44]   I've got one last question uhm you mentioned very early on during your testimony uhm uhm that you clearly remember the sunset the day before the Germans came

[1:48:52] ya the sunset and I clearly (tell you about it) again and enjoying them very much

[1:48:56] and you remember that it was red

[1:48:57] ya ! very red !

[1:49:00] and   is that al-

[1:49:01] the before it was very red also

[1:49:03] is there also

[1:49:05] and we said uh look how much blood is running on the world that's what we said

[1:49:08] uhu

[1:49:10] ya so that's like uhm foreshadowing uhm the events that were about to happen

[1:49:14] probably I don't know

[1:49:15] in your mind

[1:49:17] it was very red we had a very red sunsets it was all red   and on the background were already fires burning the army burned their depots in the inside the harbour they had   and we said »look even the even God says (that's not) something is not good there«

[1:49:39] so we thank you very much

[1:49:44] you're welcome

[1:49:45] for your and your wife's hospitality

[1:49:47] you're welcome

[1:49:48] and for this testimony

[1:49:50] I liked th- th- that I told you I feel freer because every time I speak I feel much better

[1:49:55] uh okay that's good

[1:49:57] I don't I don't feel worse on the contrary

[1:49:59] that's good

[1:50:00] but I can't forget it that's the one bad thing of this is that I don't forget it sometimes I get wild but I say this is it   sometimes I take it off my (_) that is why I have written the big book the Greek book is very very thick because there is many photographs

[1:50:21] there

[1:50:23] yeah maybe later you can also show us even if we don't understand it

[1:50:28] I have I have the book here

[1:50:29] uhm that would be interesting

[1:50:31] I I will give you book

[1:50:32] uhm hm yeah

[1:50:34] okay thank you very much

[1:50:37] there are about a hundred pictures there

[1:50:39] uhm hm

[1:50:41] I will give it